Europe at War

[relm1]

I played in a concert for Ukrainians a few years ago.  I don't remember what the occasion was, but I dug up an email that shows the concert was on August 24, 2014.  I remember it was the first time I was in a room with a thousand Ukranians, many of them were in full military uniforms.  The concert included symphony orchestra, ballet, church choir, folk instruments, etc.  The orchestra was released about two hours in but I stayed as audience for another hour and really enjoyed it.  I had a lovely time and got a sense they were very warm and generous people.  The kind who would give you, as a guest, everything of theirs though they had little themselves.  I wish them all peace and safety in this unjust invasion.  They deserve peace and prosperity.  Truly sad times to see such naked aggression on innocent people.

[Florestan]

I played in a concert for Ukrainians a few years ago.  I don't remember what the occasion was, but I dug up an email that shows the concert was on August 24, 2014.  I remember it was the first time I was in a room with a thousand Ukranians, many of them were in full military uniforms.  The concert included symphony orchestra, ballet, church choir, folk instruments, etc.  The orchestra was released about two hours in but I stayed as audience for another hour and really enjoyed it.  I had a lovely time and got a sense they were very warm and generous people.  The kind who would give you, as a guest, everything of theirs though they had little themselves.  I wish them all peace and safety in this unjust invasion.  They deserve peace and prosperity.  Truly sad times to see such naked aggression on innocent people.

The sad irony / paradox is that, according to numerous testimonies, ordinary Russian people are no different. (I personally don't know, I have no Russian acquaintances --- what I know about Russians is from their literature). So I think ordinary Russians too are innocent people who deserve peace and prosperity. It's only that their rulers have been mostly ruthless tyrants with complete and utter disregard for anything other than their own power and glorification.

May God deliver Ukrainians from the Putinist aggression and the Russians from the Putinist tyranny.

[Florestan]

I just remembered two things which are representative for how Romanians feel with regard to Russia.

1. In 2017 on December 1st (our National Day) I was, together with my wife, son and late father-in-law, in the public of the military parade. Incidentally, we were located exactly vis-a-vis the Russian Embassy. So, when my at the time four-year-nine-month son asked his mother in a loud voice: "Mom, where are our cruel ennemies?" ("your cruel ennemies" is a line from our national anthem which dates back from the (much more anti-Russian than anti-Ottoman) 1848 Revolution time --- and which he must have overheard when sung by the chorus), I replied in a loud voice: "Just across the street, my son, just across the street!", thus provoking an uproarious laughter among neighboring people. 

2. A lot earlier than that (it must have been in early 1990s) I was in a crowded bus a few days before May 9. The driver was listening to a radio station which announced that the Russian authorities considered using rockets in order to disperse the heavy clouds that were hanging over Moscow and  threatened to disrupt the Victory Day parade with heavy rains. A guy standing next beside me cried out loudly: "Please, Lord, make it snow!", thus provoking an uproarious laughter all across the bus.

[Karl Henning]

So civilized.

--Bruce

Never happen in the US, Shamefully.

[LKB]

Never happen in the US, Shamefully.

Well, as long as the refugees were white, blond, well-dressed, spoke perfect American English and demonstrated an immediate interest in spending dollars within the local economy, they'd be welcomed with open arms.

[Florestan]

[drogulus]

 
    The left in Western countries has taken a familiar line. Are you ready? 3,2,1 go......

     No to War, No to NATO.

     Following the leftist logic, should the Ukrainian military and armed civilians surrender to the advancing Russia troops in the name of Peace, and to set a proper example for the millions of Europeans who might be next? Oh, and should they also reveal the secret hideout of the NAZI Jew criminal Zelensky and his drug addicted compatriots?

[LKB]

    The left in Western countries has taken a familiar line. Are you ready? 3,2,1 go......

     No to War, No to NATO.

     Following the leftist logic, should the Ukrainian military and armed civilians surrender to the advancing Russia troops in the name of Peace, and to set a proper example for the millions of Europeans who might be next? Oh, and should they also reveal the secret hideout of the NAZI Jew criminal Zelensky and his drug addicted compatriots?

Further proof that stupidity still is not the exclusive province of Trumpkins.

[Florestan]

    The left in Western countries has taken a familiar line. Are you ready? 3,2,1 go......

     No to War, No to NATO.

     Following the leftist logic, should the Ukrainian military and armed civilians surrender to the advancing Russia troops in the name of Peace, and to set a proper example for the millions of Europeans who might be next? Oh, and should they also reveal the secret hideout of the NAZI Jew criminal Zelensky and his drug addicted compatriots?

What Western left are you talking about actually?

(Be it asked from yours truly, who is very far from being a left sympathizer / supporter / defender).

I mean, just today I've heard Frans Timmermans, a left Dutch / EU politician, criticizing heavily not only Putin but also the weak, hesitating and egotistic Western world's response to his aggressive policies.

[Karl Henning]

What Western left are you talking about actually?

Probably the wacky fringe of the US Left.

[Florestan]

Probably the wacky fringe of the US Left.

As I said, I am not a left sympathizer, let alone a leftist*, but it seems to me that the Western mainstream left is (1) strongly opposed to Putin and his aggressive policies, and (2) strongly committed to NATO. I am not aware of any Western mainstream left party or politician opposed to NATO.

* I consider myself a centrist extremist 

[MusicTurner]

    The left in Western countries has taken a familiar line. Are you ready? 3,2,1 go......

     No to War, No to NATO.

     Following the leftist logic, should the Ukrainian military and armed civilians surrender to the advancing Russia troops in the name of Peace, and to set a proper example for the millions of Europeans who might be next? Oh, and should they also reveal the secret hideout of the NAZI Jew criminal Zelensky and his drug addicted compatriots?

You're early. One aspect is that evidence of Russian war crimes will likely become overwhelming for the general public.

[Gurn Blanston]

As I said, I am not a left sympathizer, let alone a leftist*, but it seems to me that the Western mainstream left is (1) strongly opposed to Putin and his aggressive policies, and (2) strongly committed to NATO. I am not aware of any Western mainstream left party or politician opposed to NATO.

* I consider myself a centrist extremist 

I agree with this. The only people I can see as sympathizing with Putin et al are the US Far Right Trumpists, and I actually believe they are doing so not because they actually 'like' Putin, but because they hate Biden. The overwhelming sense I get from reading their shit on Twitter is that it is more important to attack the POTUS than it is to recognize that our traditional enemies are still our enemies, just as they always have been. The mental gymnastics needed to maintain that belief against all evidence to the contrary must be exhausting them.

[T. D.]

I agree with this. The only people I can see as sympathizing with Putin et al are the US Far Right Trumpists, and I actually believe they are doing so not because they actually 'like' Putin, but because they hate Biden. The overwhelming sense I get from reading their shit on Twitter is that it is more important to attack the POTUS than it is to recognize that our traditional enemies are still our enemies, just as they always have been. The mental gymnastics needed to maintain that belief against all evidence to the contrary must be exhausting them.

Good points.
I'd also consider the possibility that a substantial volume of the "US Far Right Trumpist shit on Twitter" is produced by Russobots. 

[Florestan]

Good points.
I'd also consider the possibility that a substantial volume of the "US Far Right Trumpist shit on Twitter" is produced by Russobots. 

Today the Romanian authorities shut down the main Russian propaganda tool on the Romanian internet: https://ro.sputnik.md

It pains me to support censorship but I have to say that in this particular case they were absolutely right.

[bhodges]

I agree with this. The only people I can see as sympathizing with Putin et al are the US Far Right Trumpists, and I actually believe they are doing so not because they actually 'like' Putin, but because they hate Biden. The overwhelming sense I get from reading their shit on Twitter is that it is more important to attack the POTUS than it is to recognize that our traditional enemies are still our enemies, just as they always have been. The mental gymnastics needed to maintain that belief against all evidence to the contrary must be exhausting them.

Yes, and it's just ridiculous. (Also, so far I think Biden is exercising admirable restraint, which granted, may not be recognized until later.) And definitely "yes" to the mental gymnastics.

Good points.
I'd also consider the possibility that a substantial volume of the "US Far Right Trumpist shit on Twitter" is produced by Russobots. 

And 100% for sure. Not always obvious, but most of the time, you can spot them a mile away.

--Bruce

[Florestan]

I agree with this. The only people I can see as sympathizing with Putin et al are the US Far Right Trumpists, and I actually believe they are doing so not because they actually 'like' Putin, but because they hate Biden.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Quite possibly the most destructive fallacy in the whole history of mankind.

[drogulus]

As I said, I am not a left sympathizer, let alone a leftist*, but it seems to me that the Western mainstream left is (1) strongly opposed to Putin and his aggressive policies, and (2) strongly committed to NATO. I am not aware of any Western mainstream left party or politician opposed to NATO.

* I consider myself a centrist extremist 

     I mean the left left, not liberals. Check out Democracy Now, Noam Chomsky, Katrina Vanden Heuvel, and I don't know who else because I don't follow any of them.

[BasilValentine]

I agree with this. The only people I can see as sympathizing with Putin et al are the US Far Right Trumpists, and I actually believe they are doing so not because they actually 'like' Putin, but because they hate Biden. The overwhelming sense I get from reading their shit on Twitter is that it is more important to attack the POTUS than it is to recognize that our traditional enemies are still our enemies, just as they always have been. The mental gymnastics needed to maintain that belief against all evidence to the contrary must be exhausting them.

It's naive to think they're doing mental gymnastics or any other kind. They like Trump precisely because he relieves them of the responsibility of resolving contradictions or thinking critically. He gives a dispensation to indulge their worst impulses and to feel self-righteous about doing it. That's priceless to schmucks.

[Todd]

I mean, just today I've heard Frans Timmermans, a left Dutch / EU politician, criticizing heavily not only Putin but also the weak, hesitating and egotistic Western world's response to his aggressive policies.

I don't follow Dutch politics.  Is Frans Timmermans in a position of significant influence that can sway not only Dutch but also broad European and American policy responses?  And what, pray tell, are the additional responses available to "The West" in this situation, save more severe sanctions, cyberwarfare, and regional destabilization?