Europe at War

[Florestan]

So did I a while back and added him to my ignore list.

I'm not going to ignore Todd. His posts about music are substantial and interesting.

EDIT: and I agree both (1) with milk that Todd is knowledgeable and honest, and (2) with Madiel that sometimes he seems like trolling. 

[71 dB]

I'm not going to ignore Todd. His posts about music are substantial and interesting.

Yes, but it is a price I have to pay tp protect my sanity. Life has become intolerable even without him. Fortunately we have plenty of other member around making substantial and interesting posts.

All I can do is listen to J.S.Bach's cantatas and pray it makes me forget abotu Ukraine/Russia/NATO/Turkey for a moment! 

[drogulus]

HOLY FUCK!!

Todd was right! Finland won't become a member of NATO! Recep Tayyip Erdoğan is against it! 

What happens to us now? 

     Finland is in. They want in, and NATO wants them in. The formalities will be sorted out.

     The F-35 is not only a plane. If you fly it you're in a network with allied countries. It's almost like a country is renting a plane and a software package from NATO. A few countries have decided not to acquire the F-35 for precisely that reason.

[LKB]

What would have happened if someone like Paul were elected instead of Trump? I don't like Paul but I always thought he was the real radical of the bunch. Paul vs. Sanders would have been it: two politicians with real conviction. Oops. That's probably for the other thread. Yeah, I can't imagine republicans or democrats will want accountability or transparency of any kind.

Bernie Sanders won't ever get further than he has thus far at the national level. Rightly or wrongly, mainstream Americans won't ever really trust anyone that far left.

Rand Paul is an anti-vaxxer, a Trump supporter ( though not invariably ), and a frequent guest on serial liar and conspiracy wacknut Alex Jones' Infowars program. I guess he wanted some attention, hasn't been in the news much lately. In any event, that Ukranian aid package will get through, Paul's obstructionist posturing notwithstanding.

[Florestan]

I bet half of NATO-countries if not more are "liberal towards the Kurds", or is the Netherlands and Norway oppressing the Kurds? Not to my knowledge!

I hate this fucking World so much! Finland wants to be in peace and now this shitshow is escalatinn into if the Kurds are threaded too well in the World! Fuck this shit! Why is Turkey in NATO? It doesn't share the Western values of other NATO countries, at least anymore. Can it be kicked out?

Calm down, my friend. Erdogan is just signalling that he wants something in return for his agreement to NATO expansion. What exactly, we will see. You can bet he will eventually accept it, if grudgingly.

As for Turkey's NATO membership, its strategic geographical location makes it a key member of the alliance, and the fact that they have good relationships both with Ukraine (remember Bayraktar drones?) and Russia is an asset which makes them even more important. I dare say Turkey will play an important, maybe crucial role, when true peace talks will begin.

[Todd]

Prepare for the disappearance of Russia

And yet, it's [Russia's collapse] perfectly possible, possibly even probable. And the sooner the West starts thinking about what a Russian collapse will look like, the better — not because there is much we can do to stop it, but because it will have earth-shattering consequences for the world.

Phrase of the day for today: earth-shattering consequences for the world

[Florestan]

Prepare for the disappearance of Russia

It's saddening and maddening that a Rutgers University professor can utter such nonsense.

[LKB]

I think Florestan is on track here. Erdogan will have a price, which will pave the way for some haggling. Since the Russian Bear has been revealed to be somewhat impotent, he probably won't be overly concerned about their reaction once he flips.

[LKB]

Russia disappearing?

Balls.

Putin disappearing?

Much more likely.

[Todd]

It's saddening and maddening that a Rutgers University professor can utter such nonsense.

The US has thousands of universities, each with gobs of professors hankering to get published.  Sometimes, some of the writings are not very good.  Substitute "almost all the time" for "sometimes" if you wish.

[Florestan]

The US has thousands of universities, each with gobs of professors hankering to get published.  Sometimes, some of the writings are not very good.  Substitute "almost all the time" for "sometimes" if you wish.

Well, okay, but still... The disappearance of Russia as we know it? What does that mean? People's Republic of Moscow breaking away form the Russian Federation? The Federal Republic of St. Petersburg and Baltica following suit and applying for EU and NATO membership? The Vladivostok Free State asking to be annexed by China? 

[71 dB]

Calm down, my friend.

I'm trying!  I'm easily shocked by things I read/see/hear and it takes me days of "processing the information" to get over it and possibly calm down.

NATO is SUPER-hot topic in Finland and Sweden right now. My father even said today we have gone insane because of NATO fever. This certainly is insane... ...my mental health was MUCH better 3 months ago. Finland celebrated the Olympic Gold in Ice Hockey. Then a week later Russia attacked Ukraine and the panicked run toward NATO started... 

[Florestan]

I'm trying!  I'm easily shocked by things I read/see/hear and it takes me days of "processing the information" to get over it and possibly calm down.

NATO is SUPER-hot topic in Finland and Sweden right now. My father even said today we have gone insane because of NATO fever. This certainly is insane... ...my mental health was MUCH better 3 months ago. Finland celebrated the Olympic Gold in Ice Hockey. Then a week later Russia attacked Ukraine and the panicked run toward NATO started... 

NATO or not, you're safe. Russia will not attack you (militarily, that is). All the aggressive talk on Russian TV channels is just propaganda for domestic consumption.

[LKB]

Panicked run towards NATO?

It hardly seems that way to this non-Finn. The war is over two months old, and right from the start the Finnish and Swedish PMs ( and, more recently, Finland's President ) have presented their unified, methodical and unhurried deliberations with admirable simplicity. No hand-waving, shouting or pleading in evidence, just as it should be.

[LKB]

NATO or not, you're safe. Russia will not attack you (militarily, that is). All the aggressive talk on Russian TV stations is just propaganda for domestic consumption.

Exactamente.

[MusicTurner]

Panicked run towards NATO?

It hardly seems that way to this non-Finn. The war is over two months old, and right from the start the Finnish and Swedish PMs ( and, more recently, Finland's President) have presented their unified, methodical and unhurried deliberations with admirable simplicity. No hand-waving, shouting or pleading in evidence, just as it should be.

In reality, there's been cooperation and exercises with NATO for many years. Crimea 2014 also accentuated it.
Here's an example, 2016: https://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2014/assets/pdf/pdf_2016_06/20160615_1606-factsheet_exercises_en.pdf
(COLD RESPONSE, RAMSTEIN ALLOY, FLAMING SWORD, BALTOP 16).

[Florestan]

In reality, there's been cooperation and exercises with NATO for many years. Crimea 2014 also accentuated it.

Precisely. Sweden too.

Instead of denouncing NATO's aggressive expansion, Russia should ask why is it that each and every Central / Eastern European nation who were once their subjects or puppet states joined NATO as soon as they could. Are we all Central / Eastern Europeans just a bunch of irrational and hysterical Russophobes?

I said it in the past and I will always say it: Russia's complaining about the Baltic States, Poland and Romania joining NATO is exactly like an inveterate rapist's complaining about his former victims being put under 24/7 police protection.

[71 dB]

Panicked run towards NATO?

It hardly seems that way to this non-Finn. The war is over two months old, and right from the start the Finnish and Swedish PMs ( and, more recently, Finland's President ) have presented their unified, methodical and unhurried deliberations with admirable simplicity. No hand-waving, shouting or pleading in evidence, just as it should be.

This is panic in Nordic style. Of course the politicians act calm, while the the media has been in panic mode. Something like 32 % of Finns supported joining NATO just 3 months ago. Now 76 % support it! That's how much the war in Ukraine has affected the thinking of us Finns. We have lost ALL trust in (and respect for) Russia. The relationship between Finland and Russia (formerly the Soviet Union) has been built on mutual TRUST with careful diplomacy. That's why this new situation is completely new for us.

[LKB]

This is panic in Nordic style. Of course the politicians act calm, while the the media has been in panic mode. Something like 32 % of Finns supported joining NATO just 3 months ago. Now 76 % support it! That's how much the war in Ukraine has affected the thinking of us Finns. We have lost ALL trust in (and respect for) Russia. The relationship between Finland and Russia (formerly the Soviet Union) has been built on mutual TRUST with careful diplomacy. That's why this new situation is completely new for us.

.

Of course, a perfectly reasonable and rational set of reactions... not panic. 

[71 dB]

.

Of course, a perfectly reasonable and rational set of reactions... not panic. 

I slept really badly last night. I am tired and easily irritated. That's why Erdogan's message hit me really hard. Unfortunately bad news don't come only when I have slept well and mentally strong to deal with it. It is a vicious cycle: Bad news make me sleep worse and when I am tired the bad news affect me even stronger. That's why I have not slept well in months... ...I hope I can sleep well again when Finland is officially in NATO, but thanks to Turkey it can take a year they say. Life sucks...

At least Italy has expressed strong support for Finland and Sweden joining NATO.