Europe at War

[Todd]

The emotional and bellicose responses to the war, in some cases by people thousands of miles away, remind me of this delightful historical headline from The Onion:



It's also quite striking that IRL, pretty much no one I speak with expresses the appetite for destruction I encounter online.  I recognize this is anecdotal, and pro-war folks online may very well associate with particularly bloodthirsty people, and that perhaps I associate only with peaceniks.

[Que]

If anyone demonstrated bloodthirst and made bellicose suggestions, it was Vladimir Putin in his recent speech. And on many occasions before. It is he who is driving his own soldiers into an early grave. And he isn't behind a keyboard but at the end of a very long table. I don't think anyone on the internet comes even close.

[Todd]

If anyone demonstrated bloodthirst and made bellicose suggestions, it was Vladimir Putin in his recent speech. And on many occasions before. It is he who is driving his own soldiers into an early grave. And he isn't behind a keyboard but at the end of a very long table. I don't think anyone on the internet comes even close.

Putin is a warmonger IRL.  This forum is populated by multiple online warmongers.  Many other websites are as well.  One needn't be head of state to be a warmonger.

[Que]

Putin is a warmonger IRL.  This forum is populated by multiple online warmongers.  Many other websites are as well.  One needn't be head of state to be a warmonger.

Indeed. But anyone, or any country for that matter, that is supporting Ukraine in its decision to exercise its right to defend itself is not warmongering. Abandoning Ukraine and throw it to the wolves in the name of avoiding war, would create a structural threat to the sovereignty of other European nations and peace in Europe. It would also (further) undermine the rule of international law. Things you do not care about, I know.

[Florestan]

If anyone demonstrated bloodthirst and made bellicose suggestions, it was Vladimir Putin in his recent speech. And on many occasions before. It is he who is driving his own soldiers into an early grave. And he isn't behind a keyboard but at the end of a very long table. I don't think anyone on the internet comes even close.

anyone, or any country for that matter, that is supporting Ukraine in its decision to exercise its right to defend itself is not warmongering. Abondening Ukraine and throw it to the wolves in the name of avoiding war, would create a structural threat to the sovereignty of other European nations and peace in Europe. It would also (further) undermine the rule of international law.

Amen!

[Florestan]

a surgical takeout of Putin; or for a revolution of those discontented at conscription;

There is a very low probability for both.

Imo, the only hope is now that the Russian generals responsible for effectively pushing the nuclear button are more rational and responsible than their commander-in-chief.

[Todd]

Abondening Ukraine and throw it to the wolves in the name of avoiding war, would create a structural threat to the sovereignty of other European nations and peace in Europe. It would also (further) undermine the rule of international law.

These are dubious assertions, to say the least.

The easier one here is the assertion regarding international law.  The US is one of the most egregious violators of international law.  Gitmo is still open, for instance.  It has been operational for twenty years now.  No one will ever be held to account.  The US illegally engages in actions in multiple countries around the world.  For instance, the US literally destroyed Raqqa in Syria and murdered 1600+ civilians in the process.  No one will ever be held to account.  The US, and its allies, destroyed Libya in violation of international law, and the US acted in violation of the much more important War Powers Resolution.  No one will ever be held to account.  The US has engaged in a decades long drone war in a region from West Africa into Pakistan, killing thousands of people, including dozens or hundreds of children.  No one will ever be held to account.  The US invaded Iraq, resulting in the death of hundreds of thousands of civilians.  No one will ever be held to account, aside from some cash payouts.  Others western countries have engaged in military actions around the world in actions that either blatantly violate international law, or operate in a gray area, such as the French throughout Africa until only earlier this year.  Countries all over the world engage in all manner of unsavory actions against domestic populations, minority groups, and regional rivals, and most get pretty much no attention.  No one will ever be held to account, some African leaders aside.  International law is a Western convenience and fiction only as good as enforcement, which is selective, chauvinist, and mostly racist.  Even if it were not, it will matter less and less in the coming decades as the West continues to decline in relative terms.  And it is declining in relative terms.  The incontrovertible evidence, in terms of economic measures and military power, is there for everyone to access.

It is unclear if Russia's actions will, in fact, threaten the sovereignty of other European countries, in a structural or any other way.  Belief in this requires doublethink, where one simultaneously believes that Russia is weak and incompetent and its military is being defeated, yet somehow it will still have the power to threaten the sovereignty of other countries.  Both conditions cannot exist at the same time.  No other power threatens the sovereignty of other European countries, at least that I am aware of.  The solution here is pretty obvious: European countries need to effectively defend Europe on their own.  Europe has the resources to do so sans the US.

In the meantime, a negotiated settlement with Russia should be pursued. 

It is worth pointing out that, based on polling data, the largest subset of the US population currently expects that outcome, and that support for the war is declining slowly.  After the midterms, it may no longer be as important as it has been in the months leading up to the voting.

[Florestan]

I don't think the likes of Mossad or the CIA are going to be advertising their intentions any time soon, either, so I'm not sure any of us have the information needed to compute that sort of probability in any case.

Well, for the sake of discussion only, I think the Mossad is more capable to do it than the CIA, if only because they are certainly less scrupulous. And if they really did it, I'd pray for the members of the team every morning and evening of my remaining life. 

Well, that would amount to regime change by another name, too: one does not simply refuse to do Putin's bidding and get away with it!

There is a precedent, albeit on a much smaller scale: von Choltitz disobeying Hitler's order to destroy Paris.

[Todd]

From WaPo: Russia's annexation puts world 'two or three steps away' from nuclear war

Ukraine had really better be worth it.

[drogulus]

     I don't see why anyone supporting European defense should resist the warmonger label. We know it only takes one party to start a war and turn the defenders into warmongers. Putin has helped us to see (not me, I think) the falsity of the position that moral qualms about war can make it true that you're not in one. I didn't think the lesson was needed.

     Now Putin is trying to burn the negotiation bridge at the rhetorical level. I think this is domestic politics. Negotiation won't come until the outline for an armistice comes into view. That's up to the Ukrainians, who will decide how much recovered territory to accept as their minimum.

[Karl Henning]

     I don't see why anyone supporting European defense should resist the warmonger label. We know it only takes one party to start a war and turn the defenders into warmongers. Putin has helped us to see (not me, I think) the falsity of the position that moral qualms about war can make it true that you're not in one. I didn't think the lesson was needed.

     Now Putin is trying to burn the negotiation bridge at the rhetorical level. I think this is domestic politics. Negotiation won't come until the outline for an armistice comes into view. That's up to the Ukrainians, who will decide how much recovered territory to accept as their minimum.

Russian military ineptitude and Putin's penchant for bad decisions have been a gift, though it would have been irresponsibly risky to have counted on it. Where happily, counting on Toddy One-Note carries no risk.

[Florestan]

Russia is the only one of the former European great powers who has not yet come to terms with its inevitable and well-deserved decline and has never expressed the slightest regret, let alone apology, for their aggressive and criminal past. Not only that, but she persists in pursuing exactly the same aggressive and criminal policies. That some people, erudite scholars among them, can still maintain she has legitimate grievances against, and legitimate interests in, precisely those nations which try hard to escape the Russian sphere of influence is mind-boggling. It''s exactly like saying king Leopold II of Belgium had legitimate interests in Congo and legitimate grievances against any attempt by the native Congolese, or the international community, to curb his bloody tyranny.

[LKB]

From WaPo: Russia's annexation puts world 'two or three steps away' from nuclear war

Ukraine had really better be worth it.

Europe is worth it.

[Todd]

It''s exactly like saying king Leopold II of Belgium had legitimate interests in Congo and legitimate grievances against any attempt by the native Congolese, or the international community, to curb his bloody tyranny.

This is even worse than the endless analogies to Nazis.

Europe is worth it.

First, no it's not.  Second, Europe is not at risk.

[Florestan]

I've said it numerous times before and I say it again: Putin / Russia complaining against some of their former satellites joining NATO is exactly like an inveterate rapist complaining against some of his former victims being put under 24/7 police protection.

[Todd]

I've said it numerous times before and I say it again: Putin / Russia complaining against some of their former satellites joining NATO is exactly like an inveterate rapist complaining against some of his former victims being put under 24/7 police protection.

And it is as inaccurate and irrelevant as every other time you have posted it. 

[Florestan]

There is a Romanian saying: "A thief cries 'Catch the thieves!'". That's Putin in a nutshell.

[Todd]

I should very much like to live in a world where old sayings meant something.

[drogulus]

     Pro-Russian sources have confirmed that Russian troops have left Lyman. Ukes have raised their flag at the outskirts of the town.

[Karl Henning]

     Pro-Russian sources have confirmed that Russian troops have left Lyman. Ukes have raised their flag at the outskirts of the town.

Yeah, but, but ... the residents of Lyman are "Russian citizens forever." Trump has a magic declassification wand, and Putin, a magic Russian citizenship wand.