Would anyone here like to participate in this?

[DavidW]

What I would like to know is how to prioritize between (say) a Janacek opera and a Josquin mass and a Beethoven cello sonata.

You don't.  The listener does.  We have to make decisions with what to do with our time frequently.  Cutting out other options.  Read this book, listen to this cd, make this recipe etc.  Did we make the right choice?  Doesn't matter, life moves on.  None of those three are inherently "better" works, don't pretend otherwise.

[coffee]

You might as well like to know how to square the circle...

For God's sake, man --- why can't you just listen to what you like and let everybody else listen to what they like? Why do you need lists, comparisons, classifications, tiers and fuck?

I'm sincerely sorry if I've given the impression that I want to prevent anybody (or everybody) from listening to whatever they like. I have no such aspiration. Never even thought of the possibility.

As for myself, what I'd ideally like is to pursue cultural capital with maximum efficiency. For myself, as I wrote earlier, it's basically too late. I was born trailer park trash and I will die trailer park trash in many ways, but it looks to me like some members of the next generation of my family will be able to rise higher than I've been able to.

I understand that to some degree life is a zero sum game and so I can easily understand why people who already possess that capital may want to make it as difficult as possible for people like my family to get it -- ideally of course by attempting to persuade us that it doesn't even exist. I hope my descendants will be able to play a similar role in their own time.

Anyway, as interesting as I think this discussion is -- it interests me even more than music or almost anything else -- I really don't think my motivations matter, in that anyone is free to use the list in any way they want. I'm not trying to legislate that either.

[Florestan]

I have thousands of options and I can only listen to one at a time.

Bloody hell and fuck, just start with one option at a time and proceed from there. It's a strictly personal journey. Heck, I don't care a fig for your most strongly recommended Beethoven's 9th yet I cry to tears when listening to Schubert's Arpeggione Sonata.

[coffee]

Do you know about Buridan's ass?

Of course not.

I don't know about Pascal's wager, Rawls's veil of ignorance, Plato's cave, Nietzsche's eternal return, Occam's razor, Kierkegaard's leap of faith, Kant's categorical imperative, or probably anything else.

[Jo498]

What I would like to know is how to prioritize between (say) a Janacek opera and a Josquin mass and a Beethoven cello sonata. If I could listen to all of them at once, I wouldn't have to prioritize, but I'm kind of stuck making these choices. I have thousands of options and I can only listen to one at a time.

Sorry, but it seems crazy to me to take some homemade poll on the internet an important factor in such a decision. For me, before I knew the Beethoven cello sonatas this example would have been a no-brainer. Of course the Beethoven. I almost always went along with (semi) major works by composers I already liked other pieces of unless the genre didn't appeal at all.

Now, the two others would still be a decision (as I have some knowledge but little familiarity with either). I'd probably listen to neither UNLESS I knew I had some leisure time because both pieces would require some dedication because I would not be as familiar with their styles as with many other composers. I might pick the Josquin simply because it's shorter and I would have to bother with an action in a foreign language. So either would usually be framed within a "project" to seriously explore that opera or that mass (and maybe a few more by the same composer) but I would have to have motivation and leisure for this. I would not do this just because other people vote one of them into the 23rd and another into the 34th tier...

In any case, I would not be totally uncertain if I felt more like listening to a ca. 1500 mass or a ca. 1900 opera. I would never be like Buridan's ass in such a situation (I might be like that asinus pauper between two Haydn quartets or Mozart sonatas, though.)

[coffee]

Bloody hell and fuck, just start with one option at a time and proceed from there. It's a strictly personal journey. Heck, I don't care a fig for your most strongly recommended Beethoven's 9th yet I cry to tears when listening to Schubert's Arpeggione Sonata.

I believe you, of course, but this is not relevant to my concerns.

I'm not very interested in my own response to a given work of music. My opinions are not that important to me.

[Jo498]

I think you are seriously overestimating the cultural capital value of classical music beyond some fleeting familiarity with the best known dozens of works. Unless you are in a very specific environment and in such a case it would be better to be able to play a classical instrument. It would have to be a very special environment in which people cared whether you preferred Jenufa or rather Cunning little Vixen...

You are also seriously misestimating the value of polls from random internet fora. If you want to "go with the flow" it would be better to read common guides to CM or the seasonal programs of big orchestras or the Metropolitan opera.

[coffee]

Sorry, but it seems crazy to me to take some homemade poll on the internet an important factor in such a decision. For me, before I knew the Beethoven cello sonatas this example would have been a no-brainer. Of course the Beethoven. I almost always went along with (semi) major works by composers I already liked other pieces of unless the genre didn't appeal at all.

Now, the two others would still be a decision (as I have some knowledge but little familiarity with either). I'd probably listen to neither UNLESS I knew I had some leisure time because both pieces would require some dedication because I would not be as familiar with their styles as with many other composers. I might pick the Josquin simply because it's shorter and I would have to bother with an action in a foreign language. So either would usually be framed within a "project" to seriously explore that opera or that mass (and maybe a few more by the same composer) but I would have to have motivation and leisure for this. I would not do this just because other people vote one of them into the 23rd and another into the 34th tier...

In any case, I would not be totally uncertain if I felt more like listening to a ca. 1500 mass or a ca. 1900 opera. I would never be like Buridan's ass in such a situation (I might be like that asinus pauper between two Haydn quartets or Mozart sonatas, though.)

In terms of my own pleasure, I'd be fairly happy just to turn on youtube or whatever and let it go wherever it goes.

And I hope anyone using a list like this is prepared to put in the work to learn what they need to know about something when it becomes a high priority.

To me, my task is never to find out whether I like something or not. I'm not that important. My task (as with literature, film, cuisine, architecture, and any other art) is to gain as full as possible an understanding of why other people have admired or have not admired a work -- in order to pass that information on to other people who can use it more effectively than I will have been able to.

[Florestan]

I'm sincerely sorry if I've given the impression that I want to prevent anybody (or everybody) from listening to whatever they like. I have no such aspiration. Never even thought of the possibility.

Don't be sorry, it's my bad in this respect. I'm sure you didn't imply any such thing. Once again, my bad.

what I'd ideally like is to pursue cultural capital with maximum efficiency.

Well, music is not stock exchange. One likes what one likes, period.

For myself, as I wrote earlier, it's basically too late. I was born trailer park trash and I will die trailer park trash in many ways, but it looks to me like some members of the next generation of my family will be able to rise higher than I've been able to.

Bullshit. It's never too late for anyone to do anything. The very fact that you are willing to discuss classical music on two different fora marks you as a very special person. Never ever sell you as short!

I understand that to some degree life is a zero sum game

No, it's not! I emphatically disagree! The best things in life are not for sale, nor can the highest bidder get them.

I can easily understand why people who already possess that capital may want to make it as difficult as possible for people like my family to get it -- ideally of course by attempting to persuade us that it doesn't even exist.

Good Lord! What, if I may ask, is your trade?

[coffee]

I think you are seriously overestimating the cultural capital value of classical music beyond some fleeting familiarity with the best known dozens of works. Unless you are in a very specific environment and in such a case it would be better to be able to play a classical instrument. It would have to be a very special environment in which people cared whether you preferred Jenufa or rather Cunning little Vixen...

Well, maybe. It'd be interesting to have a discussion about which forms of cultural capital are in fact most valuable. It may be that I also aim to dress "well" and to avoid saying "I ain't" and "we wasn't" and to hold a wine glass "properly" and walk confidently and so on. 

You are also seriously misestimating the value of polls from random internet fora. If you want to "go with the flow" it would be better to read common guides to CM or the seasonal programs of big orchestras or the Metropolitan opera.

Of course I do those things too!

[Florestan]

I'm not very interested in my own response to a given work of music. My opinions are not that important to me.

Never ever say that again!

On the contrary, the only important opinions about any given piece of music are those of the individual listener, ie yours, your, yours!

Btw, please tell us who are your Top Five composers?

[Florestan]

which forms of cultural capital are in fact most valuable.

The most valuable forms of cultural capital are the ones you love the most. Period.

[coffee]

Don't be sorry, it's my bad in this respect. I'm sure you didn't imply any such thing. Once again, my bad.

Well, music is not stock exchange. One likes what one likes, period.

Bullshit. It's never too late for anyone to do anything. The very fact that you are willing to discuss classical music on two different fora marks you as a very special person. Never ever sell you as short!

No, it's not! I emphatically disagree! The best things in life are not for sale, nor can the highest bidder get them.

Good Lord! What, if I may ask, is your trade?

Alas, I'm a retired teacher, but I still tutor. I did not understand the world very well when I made the choices that led me here.

To be fair to myself, I had reasons for what I did. I had to do what I had to do. That's cryptic only because it's not worth going into the particular path that led me to realize that while the very best things in life may not for sale, very few of them truly are free, and all of them (like life itself) can be taken away by force -- and, tragically, they often are.

I have experience of a few different situations in life, and I can assure you that while families who send their children to elite universities may not be happier than families who too often cannot even get their children through high school, they do (for example) enjoy better healthcare. A few of my Ivy League friends have died prematurely, but none that I know of from complications of a painkiller addiction or even COVID; far too many of my friends and family from Appalachia have died of both. Nothing in the future can ever be guaranteed but I sure hope my nieces and nephews will suffer from the lack of basic dental care less frequently than my aunts and uncles have, and the nearest thing to making that a certainty is increasing our social status (wealth, power, respect and so on).

There are of course innumerable cultural obstacles to any move from the holler to the yacht club, and classical music is actually one of the easiest to overcome. Mostly it is of course a set of attitudes that have to be adopted, one of which I'm flamboyantly disregarding now simply by admitting that anything like this is a factor in my mind. But there is also at least some component of basic information, and it I happen to have once got tripped up there in spite of my best efforts, which is perhaps one of the reasons it interests me so much.

[Florestan]

Alas, I'm a retired teacher, but I still tutor. I did not understand the world very well when I made the choices that led me here.

[...]

Thank you for your frank answer and explanations.

I still think you sell yourself short. The worth of a person is not measured by the quality of the healthcare they can afford. In an ideal world, anyone should be able to afford good care of their health --- but we don't live in an ideal world. My idea of a worthy person is someone who did their best to provide for their family and is remembered with loving memory by their family as well as by anyone who had known them.

[coffee]

Btw, please tell us who are your Top Five composers?

I assume you mean in terms of my own enjoyment, and in that case I have never had any such thing!

But for the sake of playing the game, I'd probably say Nono, Rzewski, probably Reich, maybe Verdi, maybe Brahms. Hard to stop at five, and I hate not putting a Renaissance guy on there, so I'll kick off Brahms to make room for... I guess I'll go with Dufay today. Byrd and Tallis and Josquin and Ockeghem are all close to Dufay in my affections and would probably replace him if I'd listened to them rather than to him most recently. That's a pretty fair list anyway.

Perhaps you can see why I wouldn't take anything like this very seriously. I'm good with American literature, not too bad with literature in general, but I have almost no basis for judgment in music other than how (in my near-complete ignorance) I happen to have felt at various times. I don't mean to sell myself completely short; I've taken two semesters of high school music theory and read a few books on music. I have a pretty good knowledge of western cultural history in general. But if you assign a paper analyzing a fugue, I'll drop your class before you finish the sentence!

[coffee]

Thank you for your frank answer and explanations.

I still think you sell yourself short. The worth of a person is not measured by the quality of the healthcare they can afford. In an ideal world, anyone should be able to afford good care of their health --- but we don't live in an ideal world. My idea of a worthy person is someone who did their best to provide for their family and is remembered with loving memory by their family as well as by anyone who had known them.

I wouldn't try to measure the worth of many people -- I know too little about even myself for that -- but quality of life is a lot easier to see.

[Florestan]

I assume you mean in terms of my own enjoyment,

Of course! I know of no other terms than one's own enjoyment.

and in that case I have never had any such thing!

Drat, I'm speechless! I mean, how the fuck can one listen to music (any type of music, be it "classical" or rap or country or whatever) and never like it in terms of one's own enjoyment. Heck, I never ever listen to music which I don't enjoy --- do you?

Speechless, I tellya!

[Mandryka]

Cultural capital isn't about knowing facts. It's about savoir vivre - knowing how to interact and being able to gain access to influencers. You can be an expert in Beethoven or whatever and all that knowledge has very little capital value because you are too gauche to interact in the right way with the people who hold the cultural power - the impresarios, curators, publishing house owners, concert hall owners etc. To turn culture into capital, you need to be the right sort of person, brought up in the right way, with the right manners and the right contacts. Propositional knowledge - knowing Mozart's influence on Haydn or whatever - is neither necessary nor sufficient to make culture have a value.

[Florestan]

To turn culture into capital, you need to be the right sort of person, brought up in the right way, with the right manners and the right contacts.

So unlike Beethoven and so like Mendelssohn, right?

[Mandryka]

I don't know about Beethoven, but I think Bruckner had trouble because of his gaucheness.