You love the tune but hate the text

[pjme]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_YokuLpgQ8&ab_channel=KatharineDurran-Topic
In both cases, if you don't know the meaning of the words, you miss the irony, and the irony is of the essence in these pieces.

I don't know Katharine Durran but I wonder as to where the irony is in Mahlers use of the Veni creator hymn. Can you elaborate a bit?
At the Mahler foundation I read about the Veni creator....:
"Mahler achieved remarkable synchronization of words and music here, he claimed that after arriving at his summer retreat in 1906, prepared to immerse himself in composing the work, he noticed an inconsistency in the text that he had with him, which caused him to believe that it was either incomplete or otherwise incorrect. He asked that the for him the sent to him immediately, when it arrived, he had already composed the music, and low and behold, it fit to the text perfectly, as if, in composing the music, he knew instinctively what the text should be. Constantine Floros believes the story apocryphal, he suggests that an examination of the relationship between the words and the music reveals that Mahler was not guided by the idea of absolute music as he claimed, but by the text to which key musical passages are often geared."
and
"Even the bells according to Floros, are used as a symbolical reference to transcendence. Part one opens in a resplendent mood full of spirit and enthusiasm. Without a single measure of introduction, the exposition begins at once on a strong low E flat, thus immediately sounding the tonic route, it is followed in the middle of the bar by an equally powerful E flat major chord on the organ that hails the entrance of the first theme in both choruses, to the words "Veni, veni Creator Spiritus" the choruses joyfully resound with a resilient theme, which we'll call veiny one, as a mighty evocation of the creative spirit sourced in Divine majesty, veiny one begins with Mahler's favorite interval, the fourth ear falling, played in a trochaic rhythm long short, followed after a single beat rest by a rising seventh."
and
"This monumental conclusion to an incredibly powerful and complex movement not only contains some of Mahler's most thrilling music, but shows the composer at the height of his creative powers. He demonstrates his ability to integrate diverse musical material in an extremely complex contrapuntal setting and to conjoin music and text in a symbolic interrelationship that is representative of his creative philosophy. It is hard to imagine what more needs to be said after such a strong and definitive conclusion. Yet there is still something to be achieved before true and enduring creativity can be accomplished."
Source: https://mahlerfoundation.org/mahler/listening-guide/listening-guide-movement-1-lied-1-hymnus-veni-creator-spiritus/
Anyway, my knowledge of english may be too weak to grasp what you try to explain. ...

[Mandryka]

Thanks for the two examples. Couldn't agree more. I've been trying to get a grip on irony for years so these are particularly interesting for me. Haven't been familiar with either (Mahler 8 being the only symphony of his I've avoided completely so far).

In French there's an expression which I think is very close to irony, though I should warn you I'm not a native speaker. They say second degré. A second meaning -- a second point, aim -- which lies behind the surface. I suppose this idea of a sense which is behind the surface meaning, this spatial metaphor,  is what leads people to talk about depth.

I wonder as to where the irony is in Mahlers use of the Veni creator hymn. Can you elaborate a bit?
At the Mahler foundation I read about the Veni creator....:

Put it like this, setting Veni Creator Spiritus in a way which follows the conventions of  religious hymn music is one thing -- to set it like Mahler did in the 8th symphony, a raucous march tune at times,  is at the very least iconoclastic and possibly much more than that. All this to be taken in the context of the second half, which is a secular text (Faust) set in a rapt and spiritual sounding way.

If you didn't know what the texts were and what they signified, all this would pass you by. You'd just have the musical surface.

[Mandryka]

Here's Brahms's idea of a hymn setting to contrast with Mahler's

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMQH4uzEwlM&ab_channel=St.AugustineAcademyPress

And Bruckner's

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6fAT3iGRWc&ab_channel=morphthing1

Here's  Veni Creator Spiritus by Arvo Part

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqLr1itXYvM&ab_channel=Rub%C3%A9nDJSuzukid

Contrast Mahler from this point

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5Id1OAPNsA&t=774s&ab_channel=rogerbridgland

But the real point I want to make is that you couldn't even begin to have the discussion if you weren't aware of the sense of the text.

[Verena]

In French there's an expression which I think is very close to irony, though I should warn you I'm not a native speaker. They say second degré. A second meaning -- a second point, aim -- which lies behind the surface. I suppose this idea of a sense which is behind the surface meaning, this spatial metaphor,  is what leads people to talk about depth.

Put it like this, setting Veni Creator Spiritus in a way which follows the conventions of  religious hymn music is one thing -- to set it like Mahler did in the 8th symphony, a raucous march tune at times,  is at the very least iconoclastic and possibly much more than that. All this to be taken in the context of the second half, which is a secular text (Faust) set in a rapt and spiritual sounding way.

If you didn't know what the texts were and what they signified, all this would pass you by. You'd just have the musical surface.

Yes, that is a really helpful way of capturing the essence of irony I think. Also in comparison with metaphor, where the metaphorical meaning is maybe not so much "behind" but rather an extension of the literal meaning.

[Jo498]

I don't think Mahler 8 is "iconoclastic" at all. It's not "traditional" but neither was the Gloria of Beethoven's Missa solemnis (or the choral finale of his 9th) ~80 years earlier. Both Beethoven and Mahler use the full at their time "modern" choral+symphonic apparatus to convey spiritual exaltation. (That's not to deny that some Catholics might not appreciate the setting of a liturgic hymn in a symphony.)

This might qualify for an UO but I think overall Mahler is far more often "naive"/"straight" in expression than ironic/parodistic (e.g. I think there is nothing whatsoever "distancing" in either Urlicht or the long last movement of the 2nd symphony, it's all completely serious). And the parodistic or "distancing" passages are usually recognizable quite well and even they often have a core of melancholy. Like in some Schubert or Schumann when an ironic tone is used to deal with heartbreak etc or trying to cheer oneself up (in vain).
Sure, in  a way whatever one finds in a work of art was "in there". But I believe that the all-pervasive ironic attitude of postmodernity can distort the perception because since the 1960s or so many people seem to be unable to take anything seriously, so the ironic mode is the only one left to them.

[Mandryka]

I don't think Mahler 8 is "iconoclastic" at all. It's not "traditional" but neither was the Gloria of Beethoven's Missa solemnis (or the choral finale of his 9th) ~80 years earlier. Both Beethoven and Mahler use the full at their time "modern" choral+symphonic apparatus to convey spiritual exaltation. (That's not to deny that some Catholics might not appreciate the setting of a liturgic hymn in a symphony.)

This might qualify for an UO but I think overall Mahler is far more often "naive"/"straight" in expression than ironic/parodistic (e.g. I think there is nothing whatsoever "distancing" in either Urlicht or the long last movement of the 2nd symphony, it's all completely serious). And the parodistic or "distancing" passages are usually recognizable quite well and even they often have a core of melancholy. Like in some Schubert or Schumann when an ironic tone is used to deal with heartbreak etc or trying to cheer oneself up (in vain).
Sure, in  a way whatever one finds in a work of art was "in there". But I believe that the all-pervasive ironic attitude of postmodernity can distort the perception because since the 1960s or so many people seem to be unable to take anything seriously, so the ironic mode is the only one left to them.

Nobody was suggesting that Mahler was writing parodies or that he wasn't being serious. There are lots of senses of irony in English, but at the very least it is about there being a surface meaning and an underlying meaning. 

What is UO?

Missa Solmenis Gloria may have been iconoclastic too, I don't know, I haven't thought about it. The hymn in Beethoven 9 maybe -- though there we have a setting of Goethe (like Mahler in Part 2 of Symphony 8.) That relation between Beethoven 9 and Mahler 8 is something interesting to explore -- from the secular/sacred point of view.

But to repeat, the only point I really wanted to make is that this discussion isn't even open to someone who thinks that the text can me ignored.

[prémont]

Of course one isn't able to understand the composers intention fully if one doesn't know or understand the text. But the OP's question was - as I read it - whether the text may be a disturbing factor in the enjoyment of the music, and if at least some music is enjoyed the best when you don't know the text. For my own part, I often think that it is enough to know the content of the text in general terms in order to enjoy the music as such.

[Florestan]

the hymn in Beethoven 9 maybe -- though there we have a setting of Goethe

Ahem.... Schiller.

[Florestan]

Of course one isn't able to understand the composers intention fully if one doesn't know or understand the text. But the OP's question was - as I read it - whether the text may be a disturbing factor in the enjoyment of the music, and if at least some music is enjoyed the best when you don't know the text. For my own part, I often think that it is enough to know the content of the text in general terms in order to enjoy the music as such.

This.

Actually, I had an uncanny experience with Grieg's Lieder. I understand not a iota of  Norwegian yet in 8 cases out of 10 I was able to correctly guess the general mood or feeling by listening to them first and then reading the English translation of lyrics.

[pjme]

Of course one isn't able to understand the composers intention fully if one doesn't know or understand the text. But the OP's question was - as I read it - whether the text may be a disturbing factor in the enjoyment of the music, and if at least some music is enjoyed the best when you don't know the text. For my own part, I often think that it is enough to know the content of the text in general terms in order to enjoy the music as such.

For me, understanding the text (usually) enriches/ helps understanding (most) music and (often) leads to more ( literary)discoveries, new words, unforeseen connections, forgotten customs, prayers, silly/sentimental/ raucous/rude words, curses...

[Mandryka]

Ahem.... Schiller.

Ah -- the author of my favourite quote in the whole of literature.

Notwendigkeit ist da, der Zweifel flieht,
Nacht musst es sein wo Friedland's Sterne strahlen.

[prémont]

For me, understanding the text (usually) enriches/ helps understanding (most) music and (often) leads to more ( literary)discoveries, new words, unforeseen connections, forgotten customs, prayers, silly/sentimental/ raucous/rude words, curses...

But reading of poetry may have a similar or better effect - without distracting music! 

[Florestan]

Ah -- the author of my favourite quote in the whole of literature.

Notwendigkeit ist da, der Zweifel flieht,
Nacht musst es sein wo Friedland's Sterne strahlen.

Would you please elaborate a bit on this? I see it's from Wallensteins Tod but a bit of context and why you like it so much would be most helpful --- as well as an English or French translation. Google Translate doesn't make much sense to me but I guess it's precisely because of the lack of context. I'm really interested. TIA.

[Florestan]

But reading of poetry may have a similar or better effect - without distracting music!

+ 1.

I have discovered much more new words, unforeseen connections, forgotten customs, prayers, silly/sentimental/ raucous/rude words, curses by reading poetry or browsing GMG than by listening to music. 

[Mandryka]

Of course one isn't able to understand the composers intention fully if one doesn't know or understand the text. But the OP's question was - as I read it - whether the text may be a disturbing factor in the enjoyment of the music, and if at least some music is enjoyed the best when you don't know the text. For my own part, I often think that it is enough to know the content of the text in general terms in order to enjoy the music as such.

A general sense yes, when the composer doesn't set the word with their meaning in mind - when they're just set to use the sounds of the syllables. But in the core of classical music, from Bach to Britten say, it's not like that. The words matter. And if you only know the gist you're missing out on quite a big aspect of the music: understanding why those words phrases and sentences have been set in that way.

You're effectively choosing to pretend that the composer has set the text music for the sounds only, or more or less.

Let's take an example which came up recently in a discussion - BWV 140, Wachet Auf . . . If you didn't play pretty close attention to the text, you'd miss all the sexiness of the recitative and duet. That will very much restrict your ability to appreciate the nuances of the music in performance, especially in a performance like Harnoncourt's where the duet is sung by boy and bass.

I wonder how many people who have enjoyed this lollipop of a cantata are completely unaware of how sexually charged it is, because they don't bother with the text. I think that's totally superficial.

[Mandryka]

Would you please elaborate a bit on this? I see it's from Wallensteins Tod but a bit of context and why you like it so much would be most helpful --- as well as an English or French translation. Google Translate doesn't make much sense to me but I guess it's precisely because of the lack of context. I'm really interested. TIA.

It means in English

Doubt flees in the face of necessity: it must be night for Friedland's stars to shine.

A good friend of mine used to use it like a mantra almost to give herself courage and single mindedness in difficult times.

[Mandryka]

The combination of music and text is IMO the highest form of musical art.  All of my favorite music is either songs or choral works.  And having been a professional songwriter for much of my life, the craft of lyric writing and setting it musically has been an enduring interest, nay obsession, for me for as long as I can remember.

That said I do enjoy purely instrumental music - but there is also no doubt in my mind that text+music is far and away what really interests me.

Please upload one of your songs for us to hear.

[Florestan]

Last night I listened to Handel's cantata Apollo and Dafne. The text is as silly at it gets --- I mean, Apollo has just liberated Greece from an unspecified enemy (just figure that!) after which he spends about seven numbers trying to seduce Dafne, a nymph who isn't even able to recognize the liberator of her land, let alone fall in love with him. Please! (It's an Italian cantata so I was able to understand much of what is sung)

But boy, is the music gorgeous! Some of it is playing in my head right now.

[Mandryka]

Last night I listened to Handel's cantata Apollo and Dafne. The text is as silly at it gets --- I mean, Apollo has just liberated Greece from an unspecified enemy (just figure that!) after which he spends about seven numbers trying to seduce Dafne, a nymph who isn't even able to recognize the liberator of her land, let alone fall in love with him. Please! (It's an Italian cantata so I was able to understand much of what is sung)

But boy, is the music gorgeous! Some of it is playing in my head right now.

You can make almost any text sound silly if you say it like that. I could make King Lear and the Iliad sound silly. But King Lear and The Iliad are major works of art because of the poetry, i.e. the music created by the words chosen.

[Florestan]

You can make almost any text sound silly if you say it like that. I could make King Lear and the Iliad sound silly. But King Lear and The Iliad are major works of art because of the poetry, i.e. the music created by the words chosen.

Sorry, this is not an apt comparison. King Lear and The Illiad are not musical works, the (credible) claim that the later was rather sung than recited notwithstanding (I suspect it was pretty much something like a recitativo secco).

But generally your point is valid: a sequence of words can create an inner music.

For instance, these two Romanian examples:

1. Argint e pe ape şi aur în aer literally means Silver is on waters and gold in the air and the meaning is that the shining moon is reflected on a lake.

Prin vulturi vântul viu vuia,
Vrun prinţ mai tânăr când trecea

literally means

Through eagles the wind vividly wuthered
When some younger prince rode by

and the meaning is that when a younger prince rode by the wind wuthered by the side of the eagles on his helmet.

Both verses are highly musical even without any music attached.

Just ask Petru on your next meeting.