You love the tune but hate the text

Started by Verena, August 07, 2022, 04:26:07 AM

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Florestan

Quote from: Mandryka on August 09, 2022, 07:36:33 AM
It means in English

Doubt flees in the face of necessity: it must be night for Friedland's stars to shine.

A good friend of mine used to use it like a mantra almost to give herself courage and single mindedness in difficult times.

The best mantra for those times is this:

Point n'est besoin d'espérer pour entreprendre, ni de réussir pour persévérer. --- Guillaume Ier d'Orange-Nassau (le Taciturne)

One need not hope in order to undertake, nor succeed in order to persevere. --- William I, Prince of Orange, Count of Nassau-Dillenburg (William the Silent)
"Beauty must appeal to the senses, must provide us with immediate enjoyment, must impress us or insinuate itself into us without any effort on our part. ." — Claude Debussy

Jo498

I only read Wallenstein once as an untutored kid decades ago (maybe some more conservative schools still read it in class in the 1980s, we only read the more entertaining "Räuber"/Brigands and "William Tell") and I probably missed a lot but that quote must be connected to Wallenstein's (he himself is "Friedland" or "der Friedländer", the name of his duchy? or so) belief in astrology (none less than Kepler made horoscopes for Wallenstein) or more generally, fate and duty. The most famous quote in German from this context is probably Wallenstein's advisor: "In deiner Brust sind deines Schicksals Sterne", i.e. your fateful stars are in your heart, it's up to you to be courageous, not waiting for the hour destined by the stars.

A lot depends on background and the commentaries one has. I recall a native participant in a German language forum who apparently had not realized in years of listening to "Winterreise" that the "tavern" or "inn" in "Das Wirtshaus" IS the graveyard.
As for "Wachet auf" I (almost) grew up with this imagery in church (although probably not as colorful and stark as Lutherans in the 18th century) and I also remember that I read on a record sleeve or so that one could almost use the piece (or at least the duets) as a wedding cantata.
But it's certainly true that a lot of these texts are nowadays historically and culturally rather distant to us (although 19th century songs less than 17th century church texts) and if one wants to dig in one needs commentary (and translations).
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

Verena

#42
Quote from: Jo498 on August 10, 2022, 12:41:06 AM
I only read Wallenstein once as an untutored kid decades ago (maybe some more conservative schools still read it in class in the 1980s, we only read the more entertaining "Räuber"/Brigands and "William Tell") and I probably missed a lot but that quote must be connected to Wallenstein's (he himself is "Friedland" or "der Friedländer", the name of his duchy? or so) belief in astrology (none less than Kepler made horoscopes for Wallenstein) or more generally, fate and duty. The most famous quote in German from this context is probably Wallenstein's advisor: "In deiner Brust sind deines Schicksals Sterne", i.e. your fateful stars are in your heart, it's up to you to be courageous, not waiting for the hour destined by the stars.

A lot depends on background and the commentaries one has. I recall a native participant in a German language forum who apparently had not realized in years of listening to "Winterreise" that the "tavern" or "inn" in "Das Wirtshaus" IS the graveyard.
As for "Wachet auf" I (almost) grew up with this imagery in church (although probably not as colorful and stark as Lutherans in the 18th century) and I also remember that I read on a record sleeve or so that one could almost use the piece (or at least the duets) as a wedding cantata.
But it's certainly true that a lot of these texts are nowadays historically and culturally rather distant to us (although 19th century songs less than 17th century church texts) and if one wants to dig in one needs commentary (and translations).

I have to admit I haven't made that connection either (Wirtshaus - graveyard).  Which is quite a bit embarrassing because my native language is German and I'm a linguist with a special interest in metaphors and similar phenomena. And Schubert is maybe my absolute favourite composer. Maybe this failure is a case of what is sometimes called "good-enough processing". You feel you've understood enough of a text and stop processing it. This often leads to misunderstandings when "good enough" turns out to be not nearly good enough. For example, many readers don't really notice the problem with the sentence: "There was a horrible plane crash. After many months, people could finally visit the place where the survivors were buried."
In my case, I of course understood that it's all about death and dying, but I just didn't make that obvious connection between tavern and graveyard.
Don't think, but look! (PI66)

ritter

It must be horrible to survive a plane crash to then be buried alive!  ;D

Verena

Quote from: ritter on August 10, 2022, 07:16:48 AM
It must be horrible to survive a plane crash to then be buried alive!  ;D

:) :laugh: Well, I hadn't thought of THAT interpretation.  ;D
Don't think, but look! (PI66)

vandermolen

The incomprehensible 'Perfect Fool' opera by Holst might be a good example of this.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).