Dvorak's Symphonies

[eyeresist]

I picked up the Mackerras 7-9, partly on recommendations here for his 9th, but was disappointed. Most distinctive thing was slow tempos and extreme dynamic range. Without those elements it's a good middle-of-the-road performance, not especially idiomatic. His 8th felt very square in the early movements, and like many conductors he played the waltz movement too slow. I also recall some curious moments of self-conscious rubato.

I've listened to the top and tail of the Anguelov set. In the late symphonies I found him excitingly stern and energetic, very good. Early symphonies I didn't like - I recall those performances as square and unsympathetic. These works are structurally weak, and really need their colour and lyricism brought out to compensate. Sound seemed not as good either.

I've been eyeing the Rowicki 2-fers for a while, hoping the price will drop slightly....

[PerfectWagnerite]

I picked up the Mackerras 7-9, partly on recommendations here for his 9th, but was disappointed. Most distinctive thing was slow tempos and extreme dynamic range. Without those elements it's a good middle-of-the-road performance, not especially idiomatic. His 8th felt very square in the early movements, and like many conductors he played the waltz movement too slow. I also recall some curious moments of self-conscious rubato.

I've been eyeing the Rowicki 2-fers for a while, hoping the price will drop slightly....

I have the same feeling regarding the Mackerras. They are not bad by any stretch but coming from Sir Charles I expected to be more. Instead I just got some pretty normal Dvorak with some strange balance and accents here and there.

My favorite cycle so far is Neumann (the one you can currently get in a big box for about $40-$50). I am not sure what "idiomatic" is but I like the perky and slighly breathy winds, the slightly edgy sounding brass, and those airy strings.

[Sergeant Rock]

I've been eyeing the Rowicki 2-fers for a while, hoping the price will drop slightly....

After living with Rowicki's Dvorak for more than thirty years, and after having heard every other cycle, I can safely say that I'll go to my grave believing there is no better versions of symphonies 1 thru 4 than his. Never been better Othello and Hussite overtures either.

Sarge

[Mark]

Kubelik's Ninth is somewhat exaggerated dynamically, IIRC. Not that I don't enjoy it - I just prefer others. I was surprised by how much I liked Colin Davis' reading with the LSO when that orchestra's live label was still in its infancy. It has real immediacy and thurst; Davis refusing to let tempi drag or phrases outstay their welcome.

[Lethevich]

Kubelik's Ninth is somewhat exaggerated dynamically, IIRC. Not that I don't enjoy it - I just prefer others. I was surprised by how much I liked Colin Davis' reading with the LSO when that orchestra's live label was still in its infancy. It has real immediacy and thurst; Davis refusing to let tempi drag or phrases outstay their welcome.

Hehe, odd. The 7th on the same label (and presumably recorded around the same time) I found amazingly slow and lethargic...

[hornteacher]

I picked up the Mackerras 7-9, partly on recommendations here for his 9th, but was disappointed.

This is the Mackerras that I highly enjoy:

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=118764

Not this one (which is okay but not my favorite and contains some of the problems you mentioned):

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=60897

[eyeresist]

Yes, the Cfp Dvorak/Mackerras is the one I have. I guess playing with the CPO always gives a hometeam advantage.

Thanks for the recommend, Sarge. I've been particularly looking for good performances of the early symphonies, which have been overlooked by most "name" conductors. Dvor/Row 1-3 is on my list!

Re Anguelov, my comments above about the early symphonies were made based on recollections of one listen several months ago, so I went back and listened to symphonies 3 and 4. I take back what I said about "unsympathetic", though he's certainly squarer than Pesek or Gunzenhauser. It's a small orchestra with decidedly weedy strings, and something tonally odd I can't quite put my finger on - I think these are studio recordings. Some odd tempo choices in 4, with 1st mvnt a little slow, and the andante taken at an allegretto speed; 3rd mvnt failed to differentiate section tempos to my liking (though I'll admit to being imprinted by what I guess is the "standard" Czech style here). But this set is cheap and worth checking for symphonies 7 and 9.


Edit: Re Colin Davis, apparently he's done 6-9 with LSO (no extras), and also 7-9 with the Concertgebouw. Can anyone comment on these?

[Mark]

Re Colin Davis, apparently he's done 6-9 with LSO (no extras), and also 7-9 with the Concertgebouw. Can anyone comment on these?

I was surprised by how much I liked Colin Davis' reading with the LSO when that orchestra's live label was still in its infancy. It has real immediacy and thurst; Davis refusing to let tempi drag or phrases outstay their welcome.

Hehe, odd. The 7th on the same label (and presumably recorded around the same time) I found amazingly slow and lethargic...

And then again, according to the '1001 Classical Recordings to Hear Before You Die' guide, his Eighth from the same series (which I also have) is the one to hear.

[eyeresist]

And then again, according to the '1001 Classical Recordings to Hear Before You Die' guide, his Eighth from the same series (which I also have) is the one to hear.

And what do you think of it?

[Mark]

And what do you think of it?

I'm the wrong person to ask - I have no particular fondness for Dvorak's Eighth.

[ChamberNut]

I'm the wrong person to ask - I have no particular fondness for Dvorak's Eighth.

Mark, bite your tongue!    That's my favorite Dvorak symphony.   0:)

[Mark]

Mark, bite your tongue!    That's my favorite Dvorak symphony.   0:)

Give me his Sixth or Seventh (especially the latter's low, brooding opening) any day.

[ChamberNut]

Give me his Sixth or Seventh (especially the latter's low, brooding opening) any day.

Absolutely don't disagree with you there. 

[Brian]

Yes, the Cfp Dvorak/Mackerras is the one I have. I guess playing with the CPO always gives a hometeam advantage.

Also, the new Supraphon Mackerras disc cannot possibly be accused of being too slow. The first movement of the Ninth is as blazing as an 80-year-old can get, I suppose ... actually, rather more.

[jwinter]

Thanks for all of the suggestions, guys!  Plenty of stuff to ponder.  I may be leaning towards Neumann/Czech PO -- I have their Slavonic Dances and like them a lot -- but will definitely check into some of the other suggestions.  Thanks!

[Lethevich]

Thanks for all of the suggestions, guys!  Plenty of stuff to ponder.  I may be leaning towards Neumann/Czech PO -- I have their Slavonic Dances and like them a lot -- but will definitely check into some of the other suggestions.  Thanks!

I can confirm that the Neumann is very good. The recording quality is quite nice considering it is from the 80s, a time when many recordings sound unusual. A bit "thin" perhaps, but it is detailed and nicely balanced (which is ideal as Neumann's conducting could be described similarly ).

[eyeresist]

Has anyone compared both Neumann sets?

I finally finished listening to the Anguelov set, and have concluded that his 6, 7 and 9 are terrific. The others, not so much, and it's a shame he didn't do better by 4 and 8, which are among my favourites. Possibly he'll do another with a bigger orchestra? :fingers crossed:

Also, the new Supraphon Mackerras disc cannot possibly be accused of being too slow. The first movement of the Ninth is as blazing as an 80-year-old can get, I suppose ... actually, rather more.

So... Either Mackerras was not in fact 80 when he made this recording, or he did something which is actually impossible?

Regarding favourite Dvorak symphonies, I'm afraid I don't really understand the praise heaped on the 7th - for all its huffing and puffing, I've always found it a bit slight. Looking forward to hearing the Szell version though. For the 8th, many performances fall short. Barbirolli is excellent, Rowicki is good and idiomatic (though both these performances have aged sonics and some scrappy playing), and my secret favourite is Horvat's bargain recording with the ORF. The others are lacklustre in various movements, and often take the waltz movement far too slow (to make it more "serious").

[Bogey]

Thanks for all of the suggestions, guys!  Plenty of stuff to ponder.  I may be leaning towards Neumann/Czech PO -- I have their Slavonic Dances and like them a lot -- but will definitely check into some of the other suggestions.  Thanks!

With the Anguélov set that was mentioned JW, please try to sample the earlier symphonies in the set.  Here are my thoughts on the first two (while Brian is waitng restlessly for the rest ):

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,75.60.html

[sound67]

I may be leaning towards Neumann/Czech PO -

Don't. They are thoroughly routine, with thinned out and flat sound to match. Kubelik, Kertesz, Suitner(!!!), Järvi, and also Anguélov, are all better choices. Never heard the Rowicki.

Thomas

[eyeresist]

Don't. They are thoroughly routine, with thinned out and flat sound to match. Kubelik, Kertesz, Suitner(!!!), Järvi, and also Anguélov, are all better choices. Never heard the Rowicki.

Since I am not a big fan of any of these, I may feel obliged to check out Neumann now 


Bogey, I will listen to 1 and 2 (Anguelov) again this weekend, as they were the first I listened to, and I feel I should re-evaluate in light of the rest of his set. (Might also help to be sober this time, erm, *ahem*.)