Rossini right or wrong on Wagner?

Started by Owen David, May 24, 2023, 05:01:08 PM

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Owen David

Mr. Wagner has beautiful moments but bad quarters of an hour.

Was Rossini right or wrong?

david johnson

chuckle...  Most all composers do that.

Wendell_E

Of course, Rossini should have started out with "IMHO".
"Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." ― Mark Twain

Florestan

Quote from: Owen David on May 24, 2023, 05:01:08 PMMr. Wagner has beautiful moments but bad quarters of an hour.

Was Rossini right or wrong?

Ask my avatar.  ;D

He also said with respect to Lohengrin: One can't judge [it] after a first hearing, and I certainly don't intend to hear it a second time.

My favorite bon mot about Wagner is by David Randolph, though: Parsifal is the kind of opera that starts at six o'clock and after it has been going for three hours, you look at your watch and it says 6.20.
There is no theory. You have only to listen. Pleasure is the law. — Claude Debussy

DavidW

Quote from: Owen David on May 24, 2023, 05:01:08 PMMr. Wagner has beautiful moments but bad quarters of an hour.

Was Rossini right or wrong?

Dead wrong.  So many jealous composers back then...

(poco) Sforzando

Everyone says Wagner should be cut. Problem is, nobody ever says what passages.
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

Lisztianwagner

Quote from: DavidW on May 25, 2023, 05:00:07 AMDead wrong.  So many jealous composers back then...
Completely agree, since Der fliegende Holländer, everything Wagner composed was masterful.
"You cannot expect the Form before the Idea, for they will come into being together." - Arnold Schönberg

Florestan

Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on May 25, 2023, 05:42:46 AMEveryone says Wagner should be cut. Problem is, nobody ever says what passages.

I'd say, for works prior to The Ring, cut everything right after the overture. For the Ring, cut everything save the purely orchestral numbers.  ;D
There is no theory. You have only to listen. Pleasure is the law. — Claude Debussy

Florestan

Quote from: DavidW on May 25, 2023, 05:00:07 AMSo many jealous composers back then...

Wagner first and foremost, with his almost pathological jealousy of Mendelssohn and Meyerbeer.  ;D

Rossini, otoh, was the most successful and celebrated operatic composer of the first half of the 19C, retired in full glory and enjoying a luxurious, hedonistic lifestyle. He had zero reasons to be jealous of Wagner.  :D
There is no theory. You have only to listen. Pleasure is the law. — Claude Debussy

ritter

Quote from: Florestan on May 25, 2023, 09:54:35 AMWagner first and foremost, with his almost pathological jealousy of Mendelssohn and Meyerbeer.  ;D

Rossini, otoh, was the most successful and celebrated operatic composer of the first half of the 19C, retired in full glory and enjoying a luxurious, hedonistic lifestyle. He had zero reasons to be jealous of Wagner.  :D
O ciel, che noia!

Good evening, Andrei.

Jo498

So he was only wrong, not jealous.

I doubt that Rossini listened to the "real Wagner", i.e. Tristan and later as this was at the end of Rossini's life or later.
Does anyone know if a particular work prompted that remark? Probably Tannhäuser?
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

(poco) Sforzando

Quote from: Florestan on May 25, 2023, 09:44:26 AMI'd say, for works prior to The Ring, cut everything right after the overture. For the Ring, cut everything save the purely orchestral numbers.  ;D

So you'd take the Forest Murmurs from Siegfried over Hagen's call to the vassals or Brünnhilde's immolation?

And do Meistersinger, Parsifal, and Tristan get a pass, or are they too to be reduced to their preludes?
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

Owen David

Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on May 25, 2023, 05:42:46 AMEveryone says Wagner should be cut. Problem is, nobody ever says what passages.

Well they always cut Hamlet and no one seems to mind. I've never of a theatregoer demanding a refund on their ticket for not getting the full monty.

Owen David


Owen David

Quote from: Florestan on May 25, 2023, 04:02:39 AMAsk my avatar.  ;D

He also said with respect to Lohengrin: One can't judge [it] after a first hearing, and I certainly don't intend to hear it a second time.

My favorite bon mot about Wagner is by David Randolph, though: Parsifal is the kind of opera that starts at six o'clock and after it has been going for three hours, you look at your watch and it says 6.20.

Good one! I've definitely experienced that sort of thing with some plays!

(poco) Sforzando

Quote from: Owen David on May 26, 2023, 12:10:38 PMWell they always cut Hamlet and no one seems to mind. I've never of a theatregoer demanding a refund on their ticket for not getting the full monty.

False analogy between verbal and musical structures. And you haven't told me what passages in Wagner's works you'd cut.
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

Owen David

Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on May 26, 2023, 04:16:27 PMFalse analogy between verbal and musical structures. And you haven't told me what passages in Wagner's works you'd cut.

Where did I say I wanted to cut passages in Wagner?  And my analogy was between revered artists not structures. So wrong on both counts.

Wendell_E

#17
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on May 25, 2023, 05:42:46 AMEveryone says Wagner should be cut. Problem is, nobody ever says what passages.

Cuts in Wagner used to be common, as you can hear many in old broadcasts from the Met and elsewhere. The first U.S. performances of Götterdämmerung at the Met, cut the scenes (and obviously the roles) of the Norns, Waltraute, and Alberich. When Simon Rattle conducted Tristan at the Met in 2016, they made a cut in Act II, not long after Tristan's entrance. Even at Bayreuth, Wieland Wagner (and Karl Böhm) cut Gutrune's solo scene in Act III of Götterdämmerung, but restored it the next summer.

I prefer my Wagner uncut.
"Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." ― Mark Twain

Jo498

There are common "stage cuts" in Tristan, Act II, parts (about 10min or so) of the long love duet. AFAIK done at least partly to leave the singers some strength for the last act (Isolde has a longer rest before the end, but Tristan obviously not)
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

Wendell_E

Quote from: Jo498 on May 28, 2023, 01:59:49 AMThere are common "stage cuts" in Tristan, Act II, parts (about 10min or so) of the long love duet. AFAIK done at least partly to leave the singers some strength for the last act (Isolde has a longer rest before the end, but Tristan obviously not)

I've also heard cuts in Act III, to spare Tristan, both broadcasts with Melchior and a 1971 broadcast with Jess Thomas.
"Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." ― Mark Twain