The influence of artists' ideologies or non-musical behaviors

[Opus131]

Intelligence yes, talent yes. Is it enough? Should we expect anything more/else from those with whom we interact, literally trusting a part of ourselves and our strengths?

We should if we believe human beings are more than the sum of their attributes, that there's something more substantial and profound about the human essence.

If an artist can merely be reduced to "talent" you are essentially thinking of the artist as nothing other than a mere biological automaton. Eventually, you might end up believing a machine could replace the great artists of the past. There are some who actually do believe this, that AI could eventually replicate human genius.

[Opus131]

Yes, but that is not the same as causing a behavior.  Jones, the author in question, was claiming actual causal behavior, e.g. (since people have mentioned him here) becoming a killer because you had listened to Gesualdo!

I believe I am correct in recalling that he claimed that Schoenberg's first wife committed adultery because Music in early 1900's Vienna was using Wagnerian chromatic harmony, i.e. Chromatic Harmony turned people into robots unable to exercise free will because they were "under the spell" of the Tristan Chord!   

For the same reason - denial of free will - Plato's claim is to be rejected as well.

This seems similar to the kind of thinking that makes some believe school shootings happen because kids play violent video games.

Even if i were to posit Wagner had some kind of deleterious psychological effect on people of the following generation it would definitely be a bit of a stretch to say Schoenberg's wife committed adultery because of Wagner (did she commit adultery btw? First time i heard this. Maybe it was Schoenberg's own music that did it).

[AnotherSpin]

We should if we believe human beings are more than the sum of their attributes, that there's something more substantial and profound about the human essence.

If an artist can merely be reduced to "talent" you are essentially thinking of the artist as nothing other than a mere biological automaton. Eventually, you might end up believing a machine could replace the great artists of the past. There are some who actually do believe this, that AI could eventually replicate human genius.

Yes, with one caveat. Essentially humans are all the same, it is their mind and all imaginary things it produces that make people seemingly different.

[AnotherSpin]

This seems similar to the kind of thinking that makes some believe school shootings happen because kids play violent video games.

Even if i were to posit Wagner had some kind of deleterious psychological effect on people of the following generation it would definitely be a bit of a stretch to say Schoenberg's wife committed adultery because of Wagner (did she commit adultery btw? First time i heard this. Maybe it was Schoenberg's own music that did it).

It seems to me that Wagner was actively opposing what Schoenberg's music and some of the dominant trends in culture and society from the early 20th century onwards embodied.

[Florestan]

what plunder did the crusaders had in mind when they sought to retake Jerusalem?

Constantinople, for instance, which they plundered and partially destroyed in 1204 during the Fourth Crusade. The famous bronze horses at the St. Mark's basilica in Venice were stolen from the Hippodrome on the occasion.

[Florestan]

But a Bach, or a Beethoven? I don't think i could believe it or accept it.

Well, Beethoven was not exactly the gentler and friendlier person of his time and milieu and his behavior towards his nephew Karl could be described as psychological abuse. Not a murderer, not a paedophile, yet not a St. Bernard of Clairvaux either.

[Todd]

that there's something more substantial and profound about the human essence.

Jack D Ripper agrees.

[Opus131]

Well, Beethoven was not exactly the gentler and friendlier person of his time and milieu and his behavior towards his nephew Karl could be described as psychological abuse. Not a murderer, not a paedophile, yet not a St. Bernard of Clairvaux either.

My opinion is that if had been born in the middle ages he might have risen to be a saint, but that this possibility was precluded from him is a sign there was something inherently wrong with him as well. His violent temperament is certainly an indication of a disturbed soul, his troubled life (including his various illnesses, his chronic stomach pains and of course his degenerative hearing loss) is a sign he needed a "correction".

That said, his late works just point to such an high degree of trascendence i just can't accept underneath his human flaws there wasn't a spark of divinity, such as would not be present in a throughly evil man.

A human soul can still hold an high degree of beauty within itself even in the presence of serious flaws, but not so much in the case of outright evil.

[Todd]

My opinion is that if had been born in the middle ages he might have risen to be a saint

Contrafactual musings have no merit.

[Florestan]

My opinion is that if had been born in the middle ages he might have risen to be a saint,

The Middle Ages could not have produced a Beethoven any more than the Enlightenment could have produced a Dante.

[BWV 1080]

My opinion is that if had been born in the middle ages he might have risen to be a saint, but that this possibility was precluded from him is a sign there was something inherently wrong with him as well. His violent temperament is certainly an indication of a disturbed soul, his troubled life (including his various illnesses, his chronic stomach pains and of course his degenerative hearing loss) is a sign he needed a "correction".

That said, his late works just point to such an high degree of trascendence i just can't accept underneath his human flaws there wasn't a spark of divinity, such as would not be present in a throughly evil man.

A human soul can still hold an high degree of beauty within itself even in the presence of serious flaws, but not so much in the case of outright evil.

What if Beethoven had been born a peasant instead of into a family of musicians?

[Florestan]

What if Beethoven had been born a peasant instead of into a family of musicians?

I don't think this would have been much of a hindrance for him. Haydn and Dvorak were born of peasant stock and rose to worldwide fame and acclaim, and one could argue that it was the very resilience and stubbornness which are characteristic of peasantry pretty much everywhere that greatly helped them in the process. It would have been the same with Beethoven.

[BWV 1080]

I don't think this would have been much of a hindrance for him. Haydn and Dvorak were born of peasant stock and rose to worldwide fame and acclaim, and one could argue that it was the very resilience and stubbornness which are characteristic of peasantry pretty much everywhere that greatly helped them in the process. It would have been the same with Beethoven.

Haydn's father was an urban tradesman not a peasant, and apprenticed FJ to musician  when he was 6.  Had FJ been born to a rural peasant that opportunity never would have arisen.

[Spotted Horses]

Haydn's father was an urban tradesman not a peasant, and apprenticed FJ to musician  when he was 6.  Had FJ been born to a rural peasant that opportunity never would have arisen.

Dvorak was not a peasant either. His father was an innkeeper who sent his son to live with relatives in Zlonice to study music at age 12.

[Mandryka]

Is it possible to feel in the musicianship of this or that musician what's inside his/her mind and soul, figuratively speaking?

In performance maybe. My favourite example is the Paul Jacobs and Gilbert Kalish's recording of En blanc et noir, which was made when Jacobs knew that his death was near. There's a palpable feeling of anger, frustration and resentment and bitterness even,  IMO.

[Opus131]

The Middle Ages could not have produced a Beethoven any more than the Enlightenment could have produced a Dante.

I didn't say anything about the middle ages producing a "Beethoven" (as in, a composer of his kind). What i said is that he had the qualifications of being a "saint".

Because of what he was able to communicate to us through his music, we are afforded the rare privilege of knowing something about what was going on inside his innermost essence as a person, and what was there was so profound that it excludes, first of all, the possibility he was altoghether evil, despite his many human faults, and in the second place, it makes one speculate how far he could have gone spiritually had he been afforded more favorable opportunities in that direction. Had he lived in the middle ages, he MIGHT have become a St. Bernard of Clairvaux.

[Opus131]

Constantinople, for instance, which they plundered and partially destroyed in 1204 during the Fourth Crusade. The famous bronze horses at the St. Mark's basilica in Venice were stolen from the Hippodrome on the occasion

Things had degenerated considerably by the Fourth Crusade and the sacking of Constantinople was a result of a complex series of events, certainly not as simple a matter as you make it out to be. The Latins had been promised funds to continue their way towards Jerusalem. Banking on the financial support of the Byzantines, they found themselves stranded when a catastrophic series of political and financial blunders left them bereft of the necessary resources to continue their campaign. Enraged by the Byzantines when they withdrew their promised support after an abrupt change in leadership, and enflamed further by the Massacre of the Latins, they decided to plunder Constantinoble under the pretext of getting what was due to them and exacting revenge for the betrayal recieved by the new Byzantine leadership. Once the funds were secured, only a portion of the invading army left for Jerusalem, while the rest ferried the booty back to the Venecians who were a very "suspect" character in this whole affair and probably one of the reasons the Fourth Crusade was such a disaster.

Ultimately, the Pope excumincated all the knights who partook in the sacking of the city, which to me shows that the mentality of that age was closer to what i am suggesting.

[Florestan]

Haydn's father was an urban tradesman not a peasant,

Dvorak was not a peasant either. His father was an innkeeper

Both Rohrau and Nelahozeves were villages. To apply the term urban to them is to considerably stretch the definition of urban. Besides, peasantry and tradesmanship or inn-keeping are not at all mutually exclusive.

[Florestan]

he had the qualifications of being a "saint".

I guess you mean saint in a totally figurative way of speaking which has got nothing to do with the saints of the Church. In either cases, Beethoven was far from possessing the necessary qualificatiuons. Your insistence in this respect is puzzling.

[Florestan]

Things had degenerated considerably by the Fourth Crusade and the sacking of Constantinople was a result of a complex series of events, certainly not as simple a matter as you make it out to be. The Latins had been promised funds to continue their way towards Jerusalem. Banking on the financial support of the Byzantines, they found themselves stranded when a catastrophic series of political and financial blunders left them bereft of the necessary resources to continue their campaign. Enraged by the Byzantines when they withdrew their promised support after an abrupt change in leadership, and enflamed further by the Massacre of the Latins, they decided to plunder Constantinoble under the pretext of getting what was due to them and exacting revenge for the betrayal recieved by the new Byzantine leadership. Once the funds were secured, only a portion of the invading army left for Jerusalem, while the rest ferried the booty back to the Venecians who were a very "suspect" character in this whole affair and probably one of the reasons the Fourth Crusade was such a disaster.

Ultimately, the Pope excumincated all the knights who partook in the sacking of the city, which to me shows that the mentality of that age was closer to what i am suggesting.

You claimed that the Crusaders were motivated exclusvely by noble ideals and had no pillaging in mind when sailing East. I gave you perhaps the most conspicuous evidence to the contrary. You argued that the Fourth Crusade was a degenerate one. Okay, let's go back to the very First Crusade then, the one preached by St. Bernard, which resulted in the Sack of Jerusalem in 1099, an event no less bloody and brutal than the Constantinople one.

As in the Beethoven case, your insistence on presenting a rosy, naively romantic vision of the past in total contrast with the documented historical reality is bizarre.