The influence of artists' ideologies or non-musical behaviors

[Mandryka]

Well let's just focus on the first. We agree that thoughts cause physical events, but you say they are not physical. I say that you need to explain how that causal relationship is possible and that prima facie it's incoherent.

[Todd]

We agree that thoughts cause physical events, but you say they are not physical.

That is not what I wrote.  You can reread what I wrote if you choose.

[Mandryka]

That is not what I wrote.  You can reread what I wrote if you choose.

Excellent, sorry about that. The bit I missed was " and the choice involves no physical anything, other than neurons moving to and fro." I would say that the choice is the neuron's moving, which is a physical event and so itself is caused or random.

[Mandryka]

Maybe this will help - I think "he chose to do X" is a psychological description of a physical event (neurons moving)

[AnotherSpin]

Thoughts cause physical events - my thinking that the bagel is tasty combined with my hunger causes me to eat the bagel. Yet you want to say that thoughts are not physical. What does that mean? You have to be able to explain the category of the mental in a way which will allow for its causal interaction with the physical.
[..]

Of course. You didn't choose the bagel to be delicious and you didn't choose to feel hungry. You felt hungry, the bagel appeared in front of you. If the bagel and the doughnut had appeared, you reacted to the stronger of stimulus. Motivation led to action and eventually, the bagel or doughnut is in your stomach.  Or both. And only after that a thought may appear: "I choosed the bagel to be eaten!!"

[pjme]

Levit did nothing worse than being a self-righteous a..hole 

and
 It's just disappointing that Levit plays such facile "I am the Jew" cards

Seriously?

Der Pianist Igor Levit hat eine antisemitisch gefärbte Morddrohung erhalten. Das schreibt der Musiker in einem Gastbeitrag für den ,,Tagesspiegel am Sonntag". Gleichzeitig warnt er, Rassismus, Antisemitismus und rechtsextremer Terror würden in Deutschland immer noch systematisch unterschätzt. Das Land befinde sich ,,mitten in einer massiven Normverschiebung innerhalb unserer Demokratie, die nicht mehr dieselbe sein wird, wenn wir geschehen lassen, dass Antisemitismus, Rassismus und Frauenhass immer weiter Raum gewinnen".

Es gehe längst nicht mehr um Einzelfälle, so Levit weiter: ,,Es geht um Opfer, immer und immer und immer wieder. Und es geht um systematischen Antisemitismus und Rassismus, um Rechtsextremismus, Terror und völkische Gewalt." Die Behörden seien angesichts ihrer Aufgaben unterbesetzt
und überfordert.

Levit erhielt nach eigenen Angaben Mitte November eine Mail, in der ihm ein Mordanschlag bei einem konkreten Konzert in einer Stadt in Süddeutschland angedroht wurde. Nach Angaben seiner Sprecherin schaltete der jüdische Pianist die Polizei ein. Das Konzert spielte er trotzdem, wobei es Personenschutz und aufwendige Sicherheitsmaßnahmen gegeben habe.

Pianist Igor Levit has received an anti-Semitic death threat. The musician writes this in a guest article for the "Tagesspiegel am Sonntag". At the same time, he warns that racism, anti-Semitism and right-wing extremist terrorism are still being systematically underestimated in Germany. The country is "in the midst of a massive shift in norms within our democracy, which will never be the same if we allow anti-Semitism, racism and misogyny to continue to gain ground".

It's no longer about isolated cases, Levit continues: "It's about victims, over and over and over again. And it's about systematic anti-Semitism and racism, about right-wing extremism, terror and ethnic violence." Given their tasks, the authorities are understaffed
and overwhelmed.

According to Levit, he received an email in mid-November in which he was threatened with assassination at a specific concert in a city in southern Germany. According to his spokeswoman, the Jewish pianist called the police. He played the concert anyway, although there was personal protection and extensive security measures.

https://www.spiegel.de/panorama/leute/pianist-igor-levit-erhielt-morddrohung-per-e-mail-a-1303016.html

[Todd]

Maybe this will help - I think "he chose to do X" is a psychological description of a physical event (neurons moving)

And thus choice becomes deterministic.  I wonder if neurologists view neurology the same way?

[Florestan]

If whatever we do, from eating dpughnuts to killing adulterous wives to molesting children, is the inescapable result of physical forces acting without our knowledge and will, if we are not morally responsible for our acts any more than the Nile is morally responsible for flowing northwards, then Hitler is no better than Mother Theresa and we should immediately do away with all criminal codes, courts of law, trials, judges, juries, sentences and prisons for they are nothing but a violation of human nature and the top of injustice.

[AnotherSpin]

If whatever we do, from eating dpughnuts to killing adulterous wives to molesting children, is the inescapable result of physical forces acting without our knowledge and will, if we are not morally responsible for our acts any more than the Nile is morally responsible for flowing northwards, then Hitler is no better than Mother Theresa and we should immediately do away with all criminal codes, courts of law, trials, judges, juries, sentences and prisons for they are nothing but a violation of human nature and the top of injustice.

You may continue to cherish codes, courts, trials, judges, juries, sentences and prisons. Anyway you have no choice in this. But try to see, is all this really helps to prevent any crimes?

[AnotherSpin]

Seriously?

Der Pianist Igor Levit hat eine antisemitisch gefärbte Morddrohung erhalten. Das schreibt der Musiker in einem Gastbeitrag für den ,,Tagesspiegel am Sonntag". Gleichzeitig warnt er, Rassismus, Antisemitismus und rechtsextremer Terror würden in Deutschland immer noch systematisch unterschätzt. Das Land befinde sich ,,mitten in einer massiven Normverschiebung innerhalb unserer Demokratie, die nicht mehr dieselbe sein wird, wenn wir geschehen lassen, dass Antisemitismus, Rassismus und Frauenhass immer weiter Raum gewinnen".

Es gehe längst nicht mehr um Einzelfälle, so Levit weiter: ,,Es geht um Opfer, immer und immer und immer wieder. Und es geht um systematischen Antisemitismus und Rassismus, um Rechtsextremismus, Terror und völkische Gewalt." Die Behörden seien angesichts ihrer Aufgaben unterbesetzt
und überfordert.

Levit erhielt nach eigenen Angaben Mitte November eine Mail, in der ihm ein Mordanschlag bei einem konkreten Konzert in einer Stadt in Süddeutschland angedroht wurde. Nach Angaben seiner Sprecherin schaltete der jüdische Pianist die Polizei ein. Das Konzert spielte er trotzdem, wobei es Personenschutz und aufwendige Sicherheitsmaßnahmen gegeben habe.

Pianist Igor Levit has received an anti-Semitic death threat. The musician writes this in a guest article for the "Tagesspiegel am Sonntag". At the same time, he warns that racism, anti-Semitism and right-wing extremist terrorism are still being systematically underestimated in Germany. The country is "in the midst of a massive shift in norms within our democracy, which will never be the same if we allow anti-Semitism, racism and misogyny to continue to gain ground".

It's no longer about isolated cases, Levit continues: "It's about victims, over and over and over again. And it's about systematic anti-Semitism and racism, about right-wing extremism, terror and ethnic violence." Given their tasks, the authorities are understaffed
and overwhelmed.

According to Levit, he received an email in mid-November in which he was threatened with assassination at a specific concert in a city in southern Germany. According to his spokeswoman, the Jewish pianist called the police. He played the concert anyway, although there was personal protection and extensive security measures.

https://www.spiegel.de/panorama/leute/pianist-igor-levit-erhielt-morddrohung-per-e-mail-a-1303016.html

It wasn't my quote.

[Mandryka]

 
 

hen Hitler is no better than Mother Theresa and we should immediately do away with all criminal codes, courts of law, trials, judges, juries, sentences and prisons for they are nothing but a violation of human nature and the top of injustice.

No, because certain behaviours are less conducive to human well being than others. There are good reasons why a society seeks to discourage violence and theft. And the moral/criminal code has an effect -- people are less likely to steal and to hurt others if they think they will be punished, either on earth or in heaven as it were. That's a very good reason to keep judges and prisons.

[Mandryka]

And thus choice becomes deterministic.  I wonder if neurologists view neurology the same way?

Thanks for an interesting discussion -- a welcome way of spending a really wet and miserable London afternoon!

[Spotted Horses]

Can you define the word "materially"?  If you purchase a recording by sinful conductor X, would the marginal income s/he receives from your purchase be considered material?  The same could apply to concert ticket purchases or book purchases.  I am unaware of other ways a consumer can transfer money, in material or immaterial amounts, to a classical music performer.

What happens if a very bad person is part of an ensemble?  The Cleveland Quartet and one other quartet that eludes my memory now each have one member accused of despicable behavior.  Is it fair or just to deprive the other three members of any support, material or immaterial, because of the actions of one member, especially if the ensemble is otherwise exceptionally good?  The same line of questioning applies to larger ensembles (eg, orchestras) and companies (eg, record labels).  If it is learned that the CEO of UMG committed a crime, or greenwashed corporate behavior to a more egregious than normal level for multinational corporations, or engaged in other corporate malfeasance you find immoral, would you stop buying UMG recordings? 

People are of course free to consume whatever content they wish, using whatever selective criteria they choose, but basing consumption behavior on morality seems sloppily selective and fickle.  (And that excludes the larger question as to whether consuming recordings in physical formats is itself immoral given potential environmental concerns that arise from consuming luxury products.)

I don't have anything to add to my comment, except that there are, of course, grey areas where discretion is exercised.

The first violinist of the Cleveland Quartet on numerous occasions sexually abused young women who were selected for a masterclass held by the quartet. I would not consider purchasing any recordings by the Cleveland Quartet since, although the quartet is disbanded, Preucil is not yet dead. Perhaps you are thinking of the Leipzig Quartet, whose first violinist barged, naked, into an elderly woman's hotel room and attempted to strangle her to death before hotel staff intervened. He protested his innocence, since at the time he was under the influence of drugs he had been given by the prostitute he was frequenting before the incident. I consider myself fortunate that I don't find the Leipzig Quartet to be a particular favorite.

[AnotherSpin]

No, because certain behaviours are less conducive to human well being than others. There are good reasons why a society seeks to discourage violence and theft. And the moral/criminal code has an effect -- people are less likely to steal and to hurt others if they think they will be punished, either on earth or in heaven as it were. That's a very good reason to keep judges and prisons.

More judges and prisons = less crime? Why do you think the US has a 4 percent of the world's population and yet a 20 percent or so of the world's incarcerated?

[Todd]

I don't have anything to add to my comment, except that there are, of course, grey areas where discretion is exercised.

Can you at least define "materially"? 

[Brian]

Can you at least define "materially"? 

I think it was pretty clear, although I would assume that the purchase of a used CD would be fine.

Also, with many CDs no longer paying artist royalties, on a label by label basis, but rather simply flat fees, I don't know how one (well, Spotted Horses) would calculate one's position in those cases. For example, I think Naxos pays something like $1000 upfront to the artists and no more. If a scandal emerged about Kevin Mallon, it would be a different calculation from a scandal about Klaus Heymann.

[Spotted Horses]

Can you at least define "materially"? 

Doing something that would increase the artist's income or professional standing. Purchasing a CD, etc.

It is not that imagine the artist cursing his or her fate, since because Spotted Horses didn't buy the CD he or she will be able to enjoy one stick package of chewing gum. If everyone declined to support problematic artists they would be supplanted by other artists, and I don't derive satisfaction from supporting problematic artists.

I think it was pretty clear, although I would assume that the purchase of a used CD would be fine.

Also, with many CDs no longer paying artist royalties, on a label by label basis, but rather simply flat fees, I don't know how one (well, Spotted Horses) would calculate one's position in those cases. For example, I think Naxos pays something like $1000 upfront to the artists and no more. If a scandal emerged about Kevin Mallon, it would be a different calculation from a scandal about Klaus Heymann.

Purchasing used CDs depletes availability of used CDs and increases demand for new CDs. And even if a label pays no royalties, they are less inclined to engage artists that don't sell well. Having a CD with good sales generally increases the prospects of an artist.

[Todd]

I think it was pretty clear, although I would assume that the purchase of a used CD would be fine.

This comes down to definitions of materiality and the perceived importance of one's purchasing behavior.  When I buy one CD, I suspect that less than one dollar goes to an artist.  When I buy one download, it's less.  When I stream, it is less yet.  Those are not material amounts.  I'm guessing the living solo artists I've personally supported directly more than any others are Hilary Hahn and Benjamin Grosvenor, and that's because I've seen them in person multiple times.  Grand total, I've probably given them what, $50, $75, (much) less?  (I've likely given more money to members of the Oregon Symphony over the years.)  My purchasing behavior is irrelevant and has no impact on anything.  The same applies to everyone here.  People can certainly base their consumption behaviors on whatever criteria they choose, but it means nothing in practical terms. 

Doing something that would increase the artist's income or professional standing. Purchasing a CD, etc.

See above.

[Opus131]

Ultimately the author is repeating the ancient Greek (Platonic) belief that Music could affect and perhaps even cause certain behaviors in people, and therefore certain kinds of music had to be avoided or even banned.

I think there's a truth there (in what Plato believed i mean). In fact Greek modes seem similar to the ragas in Hindu classical music, which are also believed to be able to induce certain states of being in the listener.

I'm not going to say how that would apply to modern music but i wouldn't be surprised if there aren't some deleterious effects to certain type of melodies or modes employed in an age like ours where basically "everything goes".

[Opus131]

It varies, I cant listen to Roger Waters now, but have no problem with the classic Pink Floyd albums

Murderers > child molesters, so Gesualdo is OK (and acted within societal norms) but I never found Saint-Saens that interesting.  Britten gives me qualms, but Nocturnal is a great piece.  Never had heard of Lost Prophets, but no way could I listen to them again if they were my favorite band.  I listen to classic Burzum, even though Varg is a murderer and Nazi POS, but stopped listening to Inquisition after it came out that Dagon had downloaded child porn (but I still listen to Pete Townshend)

Dear lord this is an unsettling list of names. I have no idea what any of those people did and now i'm afraid to look. Except for Varg i knew him having gone through an Heavy Metal phase as a teen.