Conductors

[eyeresist]

Finally -- regarding another message in this thread -- it's true that
Martinon had troubled relations with some CSO members because he tried
to "teach" them things. However, the problems arose with first-chair
players, winds in particular. According to what I have been told,
Martinon insisted upon "instructing" them how to phrase and play their
solo passages. That's not customary at all. Stokowski, Toscanini, and
Bruno Walter, among others, gave their first-chair players freedom and
didn't dictate how every note should be played. Even the martinet
Reiner did.

This is something I've wondered about. Trying to "tell them how to play" during the full rehearsal will naturally cause unhappiness in the orchestra (there are a few legendary stories doing the rounds). I assumed, it making the most sense to me, that before a rehearsal the conductor "does the rounds" with all the first chairs and soloists, and works out these things beforehand. I've been getting into Rattle's recording of Mahler 3 lately, and I can't believe that amazing scooping oboe sound in the 4th mvt occurred without careful private discussion.

"In the future, the sound projectionist will be more important than the "conductor", because he decides how it will sound for the listener in the hall."

Sounds like the raves I used to go to.

[Mirror Image]

It's nothing like that tho .. it's A LOT more 'involved'.

[eyeresist]

Knowledge is power! Educate yourself on this .. then you will understand.

To know James..... you must become James.

[Lilas Pastia]

This is something I've wondered about. Trying to "tell them how to play" during the full rehearsal will naturally cause unhappiness in the orchestra (there are a few legendary stories doing the rounds). I assumed, it making the most sense to me, that before a rehearsal the conductor "does the rounds" with all the first chairs and soloists, and works out these things beforehand. I've been getting into Rattle's recording of Mahler 3 lately, and I can't believe that amazing scooping oboe sound in the 4th mvt occurred without careful private discussion.



Sounds like the raves I used to go to.

Berthold Goldschmidt introduced that effect in the alto solo movement of the 3rd symphony. Apparently the score has an ambiguous indication at that point, something that translates as 'pulling up'. That Goldschmidt performance (LSO ca. 1960) is available on The Metrognome website. It is rather extraordinary, although in very variable,sound. Apparently Rattle was familiar with it and believes this is the true way to play that oboe solo.

[johnshade]

My collection of recorded music is well represented by the great Hungarian conductors: Fritz Reiner, George Széll, Eugene Ormándy,  Antal Doráti, and Georg Solti. In the early days of the LP, I especially liked Reiner (RCA) and Dorati (Mercury). This was my first real exposure to great music.

JS

[Rinaldo]

There are a hoard of others, Fricsay, the Dohnányis, the Fischers, Nikisch, and my own most celebrated, the brilliant Rafael Kubelik. Aye. Viva Hungary!

You there! Stop where you are, put down OUR Kubelik and Czech your facts, mate!

[mahler10th]

You there! Stop where you are, put down OUR Kubelik and Czech your facts, mate!

Oh dear, I don't know how the f*$£ I did that, how very odd and monstrously unforgivable.  Of course I know Kubelik is Czech, but somehow in the writing I got my wires crossed in a most baffling way, and I am suitably stupified by the experience.  Apologies.  No Kubelik doppleganger has existed in Hungary, and what made me include him as a Hungarian when I know like night and day he isn't is as mysterious as yellow wind.  One of those things...too much of this, maybe...


And the great Czech...

[Rinaldo]

Sir,

you are pardoned. Sláinte!

[mahler10th]

Thank you for the forgiveness Rinaldo.  Such an error is intolerable for even me to read, and I would consider the poster (if it wasn't me) to be substantially less than a bona fide Classical Music lover and most definitely in the wrong forum. 
It is likely I was listening to Kubelik doing Bruckner 3 (BRSO 27.9.1982) when I was writing about Hungarian conductors, and completely got swept away in a rare sea of Glenmorangie.  I keep listening to that Bruckner 3.  It is the best reading of that symphony I have ever heard.

[Que]

Thank you for the forgiveness Rinaldo.  Such an error is intolerable for even me to read, and I would consider the poster (if it wasn't me) to be substantially less than a bona fide Classical Music lover and most definitely in the wrong forum. 
It is likely I was listening to Kubelik doing Bruckner 3 (BRSO 27.9.1982) when I was writing about Hungarian conductors, and completely got swept away in a rare sea of Glenmorangie.  I keep listening to that Bruckner 3.  It is the best reading of that symphony I have ever heard.

Kubelik is terrific in Bruckner. In the kind of Bruckner I like anyway, sometimes here referred to as "light" Bruckner...

Q

[Lilas Pastia]

Kubelik is terrific in Bruckner. In the kind of Bruckner I like anyway, sometimes here referred to as "light" Bruckner...

Q

Absolutely, and all the better for it. His 4th is a gem too.

[Leo K.]

The passionate ones, their larger than life Egos. Gone, dried up, like letters, from his mistress lover Ada Mainardi. Letters which Arturo Toscanini kept in his trouser-pocket and which contained a handkerchief which she regularly sent to him...freshly stained with her menstrual blood. "I long to finger every sensible and hidden doted spot of you. I will pass all over you like a river of fire..." Toscanini and his baton, tearing the score in half, kicking the stand...a swelling wave of music to bring tears to the hardened heart. Where is their marred genius? Where are the geniuses? The conductor of all time, Arturo Toscanini accosted just before a concert by a frantic clarinetist whose E natural key had broken: "It's all right," Toscanini declared after a moment's thought. "You don't have an E natural tonight." A "moment's thought" to consider an entire orchestral score. "When I retire, I open a bordello," he cried. "You know what that is? Or are you all castrati? I will attract the most beautiful women in the world" this conductor has given way to that of the celebrity composer. Where have the crazed awesome men gone? The religious prophet Furtwangler, the showboater Karajan...Walter, Klemperer, Stokowski, Reiner, Munch, Solti, Mengelberg, Ansermet...no one has taken up their mantle. And we risk loss; those names are likely Lovecraftian gibberish to most souls nowadays.

Where is the perfectly groomed hair, falling into a volcano cascade? The fearsome temper, the lame swagger, freshly pressed tails, Gestapo-like organization, the odd duck?? Rodzinski, who always carried a loaded pistol in his pocket, or Szell, who told the cleaning ladies at Severance Hall what brand of toilet paper to stock...? And now to enter the hall of the Maestro. Yes, the composers, they are the Alpha, creators, but the conductors are oracles--marvelously creating through interpretation, another beautifully obfuscating glass comb through which the music is drawn through. Sometimes I think I love them more than anything else. The celebrity conductor is a dying breed, I regrettably cannot think of any alive today that one could truly call 'Maestro'.

[Mirror Image]

Those were such different times, Leo. If some of these conductors working today acted the way say Bernstein or Reiner did, then there's no doubt that they would be finding employment elsewhere. Orchestra musicians just aren't going to put up with these conductors' crudeness anymore. This reminds me of what happened to Yoel Levi (former principal conductor of the Atlanta SO), I heard stories of him being incredibly rude and even after his long tenure he still wouldn't recognize the musicians and call them by their names. He would say "Okay, you there, second violin, what's your question?" In these delicate, financially-strained times for orchestras, conductors' jobs, like the orchestra musicians, are constantly on the line.

[Gurn Blanston]

Well, in my mind, I see it as not so much a longing for the conductors themselves as for the times that allowed them to create themselves. So John's post is right on in its main point, but it might miss the point that it is the cultural shift itself that is being decried. I know that I miss the values and cultural standards of the times that I was brought up in, but surely every generation says the same thing? The Cult of the Conductor was a manifestation of 19th century times being carried over for as long as they could be sustained. Pretty much all of the guys that Leo mentions are born in the late 19th century or very early 20th century at latest. Cultural shifts, while important in and of themselves, bring  a negative for every 5 positives. In this case, the shifting importance of classical music along with the importance of the individual's self-esteem has put the Conducting Icon on the shelf. For now....

[Leo K.]

Well, in my mind, I see it as not so much a longing for the conductors themselves as for the times that allowed them to create themselves. So John's post is right on in its main point, but it might miss the point that it is the cultural shift itself that is being decried. I know that I miss the values and cultural standards of the times that I was brought up in, but surely every generation says the same thing? The Cult of the Conductor was a manifestation of 19th century times being carried over for as long as they could be sustained. Pretty much all of the guys that Leo mentions are born in the late 19th century or very early 20th century at latest. Cultural shifts, while important in and of themselves, bring  a negative for every 5 positives. In this case, the shifting importance of classical music along with the importance of the individual's self-esteem has put the Conducting Icon on the shelf. For now....

Yes, a "longing for the times that allowed them to create themselves" is what I feel, yet, as John says regarding different times, I suppose I'm looking at the past through rose-colored glasses. I didn't live those years or perform under those old school guys. Often there are times I focus on what is lost rather than the wonderful positives that arrive with a new culteral shift, as I am just as captured for our historical-critical era. It's a two edged sword, but the spice of life too.

[snyprrr]

Arturo Tamayo

[Moonfish]

*bump*

It is delightful to find such a great thread hiding in the dark corners of GMG!  I came across a "book" by Arthur Bloomfield that I found interesting (and which most likely has been posted elsewhere)! It definitely captured my attention in terms of knowing more about the more or less famous conductors we are exposed to in the historical recordings we enjoy.

Check it out at More Than Notes!

[Carnivorous Sheep]

*bump*

It is delightful to find such a great thread hiding in the dark corners of GMG!  I came across a "book" by Arthur Bloomfield that I found interesting (and which most likely has been posted elsewhere)! It definitely captured my attention in terms of knowing more about the more or less famous conductors we are exposed to in the historical recordings we enjoy.

Check it out at More Than Notes!

Cool site, do you know if there will be more additions of later conductors? Thanks.

[Moonfish]

Cool site, do you know if there will be more additions of later conductors? Thanks.

I don't know. You can e-mail the author if you wish (chumbo@earthlink.net). I'm not sure if the address is still working. 

[Spineur]

Sad news: George Prêtre passed away.  He was much admired worldwide.
It seems that since the beginning of 2016, death has been taking a special interest in musicians.