Mozart Piano Concertos

[Jo498]

I wonder what Mozart would have thought of this, given that he wrote all his concertos to showcase himself... 

If you've heard them on a historical instrument, you realize that this is puny tinkling and the orchestra is often the real star.

[Jo498]

If so, Schiff/Vegh should be right up your alley.

yes, I have most of them. Schiff is sometimes a bit too puny and I dislike that they use strings only in KV 414/449 (so I assume it's the same in 413+415, I didn't bother to buy).

[Florestan]

If you've heard them on a historical instrument, you realize that this is puny tinkling and the orchestra is often the real star.

This is exactly why I don't care a fig for HIP performances in which the keyboard is just puny tinkling and the orchestra is often the real star. This music was neither a recitativo secco, nor an overture, it was a concerto for soloist and orchestra --- therefore any performance, HIP or modern, which drowns the soloist in an orchestral mass of sounds is an inaccurate travesty and should not be taken seriously.

[George]

yes, I have most of them. Schiff is sometimes a bit too puny and I dislike that they use strings only in KV 414/449 (so I assume it's the same in 413+415, I didn't bother to buy).

I agree that Schiff is too puny. It's the set's biggest flaw. 

[prémont]

Which is exactly what they were written for: entertainment.  They were written mostly for pupils to have something to play in order to display their profficiency and taste.They have an innocence of feeling and expression, a freshness and a fragrance that are galaxise away from the self-conscious, in-your-face and ultimately tiresome Beethovenian incessant heroism and grand-standing. In short, to use Schiller's terminology, they are exquisitely naive, as opposed to Beethoven's horribly sentimental.

Entertainment doesn't imply much reflection nor thoughtfulness. In one ear, out the other. This is how I feel about much (but certainly not all) of Mozart's music, and from a mental hygienic point of view I have no use for this kind of music.

And I think it's over the point to say that Beethoven's music is sentimental. This label should be reserved to the late romantic composers.

--- and in nany case, Classical Era reserved emotional depth for vocal music, sacred or opera. Instrumental music was never meant to plumb such depths, and thanks God for that!

While I think your description fits most of what I have heard of Haydn's instrumental music I don't think it is true of all Mozart's instrumental music. What about the two last symphonies, the piano concerto in c-minor and the string quintet in g-minor eg.?

[Florestan]

As a "cycle" (or rather "body of works")

The concept of "cycle" or "body of works" is highly anachronistic when applied to Classical Era music, Haydn and Mozart included --- and so is the very concept of mere "work". They did not compose "works" back then, they simply wrote what they were comissioned to write.

[JBS]

I mostly agree; they are nice works but I'd miss only a handful. As a "cycle" (or rather "body of works") they are pretty inconsequential, no comparison to the piano concerti.
Although I personally love many of them, find them more underrated and should be more popular, I'd overall say the same about Haydn's piano sonatas.

If one gets the recent white box of Peter Serkin's Mozart, there are broad, dark, almost romantic recordings of two sonatas and some other pieces.

Serkin might have been putting a maxim of Vladimir Horowitz into practice: Play Mozart as if he was Chopin and play Chopin as if he was Mozart.
[Source: the liner notes from Horowitz's recording of some Mozart Piano Sonatas.]

[Mandryka]

Reverting back to Mozart: any opinions on Glenn Gould's recordings? Who claimed to hate them even while playing them.

Perfectly acceptable K 491, especially the studio performance IMO, but the one from Stockholm is fine too. And a listenable K 330 on Orfeo.

[DavidW]

I just listened to some samples of both Zacharias cycles plus Anda, not being familiar with any of the three. Spent 15 minutes bouncing around between various movements. Mandryka's comments reflect that very limited experience - the MDG Zacharias sparkled in the sunny concertos, and was a little bit light-seeming in the D minor, while the EMI Zacharias had greater pianistic energy (and occasionally improvised bits outside cadenzas) but less orchestral detail. Inspired by Jo498, I checked the cadenzas of the D minor finale. In the MDG cycle, he has the live orchestra play the Don Giovanni chord that on EMI was inserted from another recording. 

I really like the mdg cycle, haven't heard the earlier one.  The orchestral playing is just okay but Zacharias just nails it in my book.  He doesn't replace Schiff though in my book.

[Spotted Horses]

This is exactly why I don't care a fig for HIP performances in which the keyboard is just puny tinkling and the orchestra is often the real star. This music was neither a recitativo secco, nor an overture, it was a concerto for soloist and orchestra --- therefore any performance, HIP or modern, which drowns the soloist in an orchestral mass of sounds is an inaccurate travesty and should not be taken seriously.

I find that HIP performance does not reduct the prominence of the piano, since the orchestra also has a lighter, more transparent sound.

[prémont]

This is exactly why I don't care a fig for HIP performances in which the keyboard is just puny tinkling and the orchestra is often the real star. This music was neither a recitativo secco, nor an overture, it was a concerto for soloist and orchestra --- therefore any performance, HIP or modern, which drowns the soloist in an orchestral mass of sounds is an inaccurate travesty and should not be taken seriously.

If so happens the conductor and/or the producer and engineer have seriously failed.

BTW are we sure that similar balance problems didn't exist for Mozart?

[Spotted Horses]

Nice grab! And nice timing! Looks like this comes out soon. Outside of the Mozart Piano Concertos, the Bartok Concertos and a few Orfeo CDs, I don't have any Anda CDs. Hope you enjoy it!

Amazon is calling it a pre-order for august even though it's been out for years. It seems like it's just being restocked. I could have gotten it a bit cheaper if I was willing to wait, but I'm impatient.

[Pohjolas Daughter]

That was the received wisdom that I accepted until I listened to them recently (Zacharias). I haven't listened the recordings the Mandrake mentioned, but it strikes me that puffin up the sonatas into something more grand than they are risks losing the elegance in simplicity.

I recall that some of the very earliest recordings Ciccolini made were of Mozart sonatas. Maybe I'll check them out again.

Have you tried any of Alicia De Larrocha's recordings?  I really enjoy them. 

PD

[JBS]

As long as I'm in this thread, anyone have opinions on this set

Not that I need it, since I already have
Perahia
Schiff
Brendel
Barenboim/Warner
Zacharias/Warner
Engel
Sofrinitsky
Immerseel
Kraus (incomplete cycle)

[George]

Not that I need it, since I already have
Perahia
Schiff
Brendel
Barenboim/Warner
Zacharias/Warner
Engel
Sofrinitsky
Immerseel
Kraus (incomplete cycle)

Interesting, I only have the first 2 from your list. I also have Anda and Uchida. Who are your favorites?

[JBS]

Of those, who are your favorites?

Probably Perahia, Brendel, Sofrinitsky, and Immerseel.
Schiff is pretty good but doesn't please my ears as much.
Barenboim and Zacharias sort of bored me; Engel and Kraus are a bit too dated in terms of sound.

[Daverz]

As long as I'm in this thread, anyone have opinions on this set

This is currently my goto for a complete set.

For a partial set, Casadesus (mostly with Szell and some with Ormandy)

Also every disc so far in Bavouzet's Mozart PC cycle has been great.

[George]

Probably Perahia, Brendel, Sofrinitsky, and Immerseel.
Schiff is pretty good but doesn't please my ears as much.
Barenboim and Zacharias sort of bored me; Engel and Kraus are a bit too dated in terms of sound.

Thanks. I should look out for Brendel's set. I have been appreciating him more as I get older.

[j winter]

As long as I'm in this thread, anyone have opinions on this set

Not that I need it, since I already have
Perahia
Schiff
Brendel
Barenboim/Warner
Zacharias/Warner
Engel
Sofrinitsky
Immerseel
Kraus (incomplete cycle)

Personally, I quite like it.  The playing is very crisp and cleanly articulated -- it's definitely a contrast to somebody like Perahia or Barenboim, stylistically more classical than romantic, tempos flowing even in the slow movements.  Well recorded too -- definitely worth considering at budget price, IMO -- but then I love Mozart's PCs, I've probably got a dozen sets on the shelf.  

[Brian]

I moved the HIP discussion not only to a new thread, but a new board (General).