Mozart Piano Concertos

[Atriod]

My opinion of the sonatas are taken as a whole cycle. There are some fantastic stand out sonatas in there like the almost operatic/dramatic K310 that anyone would be able to pick out if heard apart from the cycle.

The sonatas in a way remind me of a joke on Reddit where someone asked to rank their favorite Haydn symphonies and the ensuing jokes that followed. Basically aside from some they blend into a big soup. Really great music for me (and I guess others) is distinct and stands out.

That was the received wisdom that I accepted until I listened to them recently (Zacharias). I haven't listened the recordings the Mandrake mentioned, but it strikes me that puffin up the sonatas into something more grand than they are risks losing the elegance in simplicity.

I recall that some of the very earliest recordings Ciccolini made were of Mozart sonatas. Maybe I'll check them out again.

I've listened to them a lot from many different pianists, performers can certainly make a big impact. The only cycle I really disliked was Ingrid Haebler on Denon. I did a big cull off a couple of years ago and the two I decided to keep were Pires Denon (Brilliant Classics) and PBS on Astree/period instruments. The commonality between both cycles is both play with plenty of brio and not in a precious style. I have others as part of the huge box sets like Arrau Complete Philips.

[prémont]

Honestly the popularity of the piano sonatas dumbfounds me, I place it at very low tier in the grand scheme of classical music and even among Mozart's output.

Just sounds like a deficiency of the sonatas themselves not the performers.

I agree with this. Thinking of the music I find the sonatas first and foremost entertaining, and many years ago I began in my usual completist way to collect different recordings and owned about fourteen when I found out that the sonatas simply didn't wear well enough in these ears. I think they miss some emotional depth. So I culled most of the recordings and kept only van Oort, Badura-Skoda (PI) and Pires I. And I rarely listen to them.

[Brian]

What do you think of the Camerata Academica on Anda's cycle? It would be interesting to hear the take from fresh ears. It would be my sole cycle to keep if forced to keep one.

In the finale of 21 (complimented earlier in this conversation) the orchestra sounded minimally rehearsed in both the good and bad senses - spontaneous and fresh, but not fully together. I will probably choose 1-2 concertos for complete comparison listening when back at the office in a couple weeks. (the office is being painted; I stream at work and play CDs at home.)

[Florestan]

Music's an odd thing. I'm in a good relation with Mozart's sonatas, they're always welcome in my house, but less so with Haydn's or Beethoven's. It's not a question of deficiencies or tiers or grand schemes or anything like that - it's a question of a person and a bit of music, a style,  clicking.

Imo, of the big names the finest, most consistently good cycle of piano sonatas is Haydn's, followed by Mozart's. Apart from a handful and a few more, I have no much use for Beethoven's.

[prémont]

Imo, of the big names the finest, most consistently good cycle of piano sonatas is Haydn's, followed by Mozart's. Apart from a handful and a few more, I have no much use for Beethoven's.

Imo, of the big names the finest, most consistently good cycle of piano sonatas is Beethoven's, followed by Haydn's. Apart from a few, I have no much use for Mozart's.

What is heard depends on the ear.

[Florestan]

I agree with this. Thinking of the music I find the sonatas first and foremost entertaining,

Which is exactly what they were written for: entertainment. They were not intended as grand statements about life and humanity, nor were they vehicles for unbridled personal expression --- such pretentions and conceits were unkown of, incomprehensible and inconceivable prior to Beethoven. They were written mostly for pupils to have something to play in order to display their profficiency and taste. This doesn't mean they are emotionless and cold, far from it, it only means that we should listen to them with pre-Beethovenian ears and sensibility. They have an innocence of feeling and expression, a freshness and a fragrance that are galaxise away from the self-conscious, in-your-face and ultimately tiresome Beethovenian incessant heroism and grand-standing. In short, to use Schiller's terminology, they are exquisitely naive, as opposed to Beethoven's horribly sentimental.

I think they miss some emotional depth.

See above. Emotional depth is not the same as emotionless --- and in nany case, Classical Era reserved emotional depth for vocal music, sacred or opera. Instrumental music was never meant to plumb such depths, and thanks God for that!

[JBS]

I'm rather like @Atriod. All pre-Beethoven sonata cycles tend to sound alike to me, including Haydn and Mozart. The same goes for Beethoven's contemporaries such as Clementi and Dussek.

As I write this, it occurs to me that after Beethoven there are sonata cycles other than Schubert (and here again I'm not too impressed). A lot of composers wrote sonatas, as one-offs, but no one seems to have tried to fully explore it. Chopin wrote three; I can't think of anyone who wrote more than that. It's as if LvB scared them all off.

Edit. My mind is mushy: Scriabin, Miaskovsky, Medtner, Prokofiev. 20th Century (more or less) Russians.
Any non-Russians? .

[JBS]

Reverting back to Mozart: any opinions on Glenn Gould's recordings? Who claimed to hate them even while playing them.

[Florestan]

I'm rather like @Atriod. All pre-Beethoven sonata cycles tend to sound alike to me, including Haydn and Mozart. The same goes for Beethoven's contemporaries such as Clementi and Dussek.

As I write this, it occurs to me that after Beethoven there are sonata cycles other than Schubert (and here again I'm not too impressed). A lot of composers wrote sonatas, as one-offs, but no one seems to have tried to fully explore it. Chopin wrote three; I can't think of anyone who wrote more than that. It's as if LvB scared them all off.

I vividly remember the Romanian film director Paul Barbăneagră stating in all earnest and on record* something to the effect that Beethoven dragged music into a quagmire out of which it has not been lifted ever since. Sometimes, nay, oftenly, I feel in complete agreement with that, with the only correction that it's not that much a question of Beethoven himself but more of his epigones and misguided posterity. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Barb%C4%83_Neagr%C4%83

* many, many, many moons ago, in a live, Romanian state TV station show dedicated to classical music --- yes, there was that back then, go figure! --- moderated by a kind of Romanian Dave Hurwitz, not the least similarity being the man was also Jewish. 

[Florestan]

Reverting back to Mozart: any opinions on Glenn Gould's recordings? Who claimed to hate them even while playing them.

My evolving reactions to his Alla Turca: (1) he's ripe for the madhouse (if you guys know what I mean...), (2) well, fater all one can play it like that and why not?, (3) it's just one out of a myriad equally valid but not equally liked performances. Overall, worth listening to once in a blue moon.

[George]

I once thought Mozart too simple and found Haydn to not take things far enough. At that time, Beethoven was my favorite composer. I thought I was getting Mozart and Haydn within Beethoven's music. I no longer think any of the above is true.

The older I get, the more I need Mozart, Haydn and Chopin. I still want Beethoven, I just don't need him nearly as much. 

[George]

I did come across the box offered used by Amazon MPs in the 30+ range, but ultimately decided to spring for the 17 CD set with all of Geza Anna's Deutsche Grammophon recordings, new for a bit over $60. Having all of the Bartok and Schumann would be worth the extra expense, especially since if I got the Mozart Box I would feel like an idiot buying the complete set later.

Nice grab! And nice timing! Looks like this comes out soon. Outside of the Mozart Piano Concertos, the Bartok Concertos and a few Orfeo CDs, I don't have any Anda CDs. Hope you enjoy it!

[Florestan]

What is heard depends on the ear.

Finally, you frankly and openly acknowledge that what any given composer may have intended with their definitive scores means nothing --- and that whatever really matters is how the music is perceived by the ear of the flesh-and-blood listener, which said ear could not perceive anything were it not for a flesh-and-blood performer. Thank you very much, and kudos! 

[Jo498]

What do you think of the Camerata Academica on Anda's cycle? It would be interesting to hear the take from fresh ears. It would be my sole cycle to keep if forced to keep one. But like @Jo498 's breakdown most of my top performances (agree with him on those Peter Serkin selections) come from outside cycles and often not with chamber orchestras.

I am probably one of the few here who in dubio cares more for the orchestra than the pianist in these pieces. Esp. in the more "symphonic pieces" from about #19 onwards. This might be one reason I consider Barenboim's (both) still quite worthwhile. In any case. more concerto recordings with Peter Serkin/Schneider or Gulda/Harnoncourt would have been marvellous.

[Florestan]

The older I get, the more I need Mozart, Haydn and Chopin. I still want Beethoven, I just don't need him nearly as much. 

My thoughts exactly, George, my thoughts exactly. 

How old are you, btw? (I've turned 50 last December.)

[Florestan]

I am probably one of the few here who in dubio cares more for the orchestra than the pianist in these pieces.

I wonder what Mozart would have thought of this, given that he wrote all his concertos to showcase himself... 

[George]

My thoughts exactly, George, my thoughts exactly. 

How old are you, btw? (I've turned 50 last December.)

I'm a couple of years ahead of you. 

[George]

I am probably one of the few here who in dubio cares more for the orchestra than the pianist in these pieces.

If so, Schiff/Vegh should be right up your alley.

[Florestan]

I'm a couple of years ahead of you. 

Blimey, I was under the impression that you were a couple of years behind me. 

Anyway, we are on the same page! Cheers, my friend!

[Jo498]

Honestly the popularity of the piano sonatas dumbfounds me, I place it at very low tier in the grand scheme of classical music and even among Mozart's output.

Just sounds like a deficiency of the sonatas themselves not the performers.

I mostly agree; they are nice works but I'd miss only a handful. As a "cycle" (or rather "body of works") they are pretty inconsequential, no comparison to the piano concerti.
Although I personally love many of them, find them more underrated and should be more popular, I'd overall say the same about Haydn's piano sonatas.

If one gets the recent white box of Peter Serkin's Mozart, there are broad, dark, almost romantic recordings of two sonatas and some other pieces.