How many here were participants in Classicalinsites?

[Spotted Horses]

How many people here participated on ClassicalInsites, the earliest classical music discussion board I am aware of (aside from usenet)? I was there, it was about the year 2000, I think.

To refresh your memories, I've attached an image I found in the internet archive (way back machine).

Does anyone else remember Ralph Stein and "Ionia?"

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

I was there, under my real name, from late 1998 until the site went bust sometime in 1999. At that point, some of the posters decamped to a site called SiteTronics, which also didn't last long.

I remember Stein and Ionia, although I paid no attention to the latter. What I remember most strongly was Mark Anstendig and his weird analog obsession and hatred of CDs.

One reason I valued the site was because I was getting into modern music in a serious way at the time, and there were several posters who were great sources for recommendations.

[DavidW]

Ralph and Mark sound familiar... I wonder if they made it too cmg where I was before gmg.  Or rmcr, which is where I started pre-forums.

[Karl Henning]

Ralph Stein was certainly on CMG

[Spotted Horses]

Ralph and Mark sound familiar... I wonder if they made it too cmg where I was before gmg.  Or rmcr, which is where I started pre-forums.

I'm pretty sure Ralph Stein did. Maybe Mark Anstendig. His web site is still on line. Its truncated from what I remember, there used to be a photo gallery. I don't know if he is still with us.

http://www.anstendig.org

He has a paper about how every individual thing in the modern world doesn't work. Digital can't represent music, cameras can't focus, widescreen video is unnatural, shoes don't fit, Top Chef judging is invalid ....

[Luke]

I was there, though I'm not sure I'll be remembered by many as I don't think I posted a huge amount. Joined in late summer or autumn 1998 IIRC, or at any event in the months after I got married (first time round 😁 ). I remember Ralph Stein, and Ionia, and I also remember seeing Karl for the first time, though not sure when or where

[T. D.]

I was on Classical Insites, probably starting around 1997. Most likely used several nicks, Tom or TomD would have been one. I was a relative classical newbie at the time and mainly used the site to get information on "contemporary" music.

Was living near NYC at the time. In the early heydays of the site, I once visited Andrew Farach-Colton (critic/expert and sort of the face behind the operation) at parent Music Boulevard's (maybe part of GRP Records?) lower Manhattan office. Must have been some kind of CD giveaway promotion. 

I followed the site through the SiteTronics days, but gradually lost interest after the many shifts.

I recall Ralph M. Stein and the "Ionia" thing. Some other names: Frank E. Berglas, Larry Rinkel, Mel Merkel, Martha, "Auntie Lynn", "Utah Bill". Paul (springrite) was there iirc, also Karl and Luke to some extent. Maybe Edward [Wright?]. Also Al(brecht) Moritz, who discovered Stockhausen and became a devotee, regularly traveling to the annual Kürten sessions. There was a young man (or so he was portrayed) "Joe" or something iirc, who was an absolute Mozart fanatic. And a "Joshua Lilly", who was convinced that Salieri was a much greater composer than Mozart...The indefatigable Amazon modern music reviewer "scarecrow" (Frank Abbinanti) may have posted there  (if not at CI, then definitely at a successor), though I can't recall his nick.

I used to follow r.m.c.c. (rec.music.classical.contemporary), which eventually died out.
Surprisingly, r.m.c.r. was still active a short while ago, though I'm not sure it will survive after the demise of Google Groups.

[Luke]

Yes, CI was where I met Larry and Al, and I remember sending them some of my early compositions, in a physical form IIRC: that was my music's first trip overseas.I was only a year or so out of university. Still grateful to them for their support.

[Spotted Horses]

I was on Classical Insites, probably starting around 1997. Most likely used several nicks, Tom or TomD would have been one. I was a relative classical newbie at the time and mainly used the site to get information on "contemporary" music.

Was living near NYC at the time. In the early heydays of the site, I once visited Andrew Farach-Colton (critic/expert and sort of the face behind the operation) at parent Music Boulevard's (maybe part of GRP Records?) lower Manhattan office. Must have been some kind of CD giveaway promotion. 

I followed the site through the SiteTronics days, but gradually lost interest after the many shifts.

I recall Ralph M. Stein and the "Ionia" thing. Some other names: Frank E. Berglas, Larry Rinkel, Mel Merkel, Martha, "Auntie Lynn", "Utah Bill". Paul (springrite) was there iirc, also Karl and Luke to some extent. Maybe Edward [Wright?]. Also Al(brecht) Moritz, who discovered Stockhausen and became a devotee, regularly traveling to the annual Kürten sessions. There was a young man (or so he was portrayed) "Joe" or something iirc, who was an absolute Mozart fanatic. And a "Joshua Lilly", who was convinced that Salieri was a much greater composer than Mozart...The indefatigable Amazon modern music reviewer "scarecrow" (Frank Abbinanti) may have posted there  (if not at CI, then definitely at a successor), though I can't recall his nick.

I used to follow r.m.c.c. (rec.music.classical.contemporary), which eventually died out.
Surprisingly, r.m.c.r. was still active a short while ago, though I'm not sure it will survive after the demise of Google Groups.

You are bringing back so many memories, and so many familiar names. There are people I remember, although their names escape me. There was the high school girl, a trumpet player, who started Ionia (playfully anointing Ralph the king of the imaginary kingdom of Ionia) and some old coot, I forgot his name, who fawned on her. I could kick myself because when CI was disappearing I put together a crude robot that downloaded every post from the site. I burned in on a CD-ROM, which I subsequently lost in one of my relocations since then.

I was also active on "usenet," later google groups. Not r.m.c.c, but r.m.c.r (rec music classical recordings?) and I remember the dialog being dominated by a Matthew Tepper, who has vanished from there but I did come across a web page he maintains somewhere.

I'm still registered at CMG, but I can't log in. It tells me my account is not activated, and no one will activate it. It seems like there are only three or four people posting there now. I am curious to log in because it might be interesting to look at the very old posts and see who was there back in the day.

[DavidW]

I was also active on "usenet," later google groups. Not r.m.c.c, but r.m.c.r (rec music classical recordings?) and I remember the dialog being dominated by a Matthew Tepper, who has vanished from there but I did come across a web page he maintains somewhere.

I remember Matthew Tepper!  In fact he answered my question from my very first online classical music post.

I'm still registered at CMG, but I can't log in. It tells me my account is not activated, and no one will activate it. It seems like there are only three or four people posting there now. I am curious to log in because it might be interesting to look at the very old posts and see who was there back in the day.

I think I'm technically still registered at cmg as well but haven't tried to log in for a very long time.

[T. D.]

The young woman who started "Ionia" on CI was named Kelsie or Kelsey or something like that, from Oklahoma iirc.

Don't get me started on all the characters from rmcr...I rather liked Matthew Tepper and Simon Roberts (from whom I bought CDs on eBay). On the other side of the spectrum Dan Koren, Tom Deacon, ...

I totally lost respect for rmcr when many of their piano gurus, most hilariously former record company honcho (Philips Great Pianists of the 20th Century) Tom Deacon, fell for the Joyce Hatto hoax hook, line and sinker.  Since then I avoided it, and Usenet in general because rmcc had become moribund.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

I recall Ralph M. Stein and the "Ionia" thing. Some other names: Frank E. Berglas, Larry Rinkel, Mel Merkel, Martha, "Auntie Lynn", "Utah Bill". Paul (springrite) was there iirc, also Karl and Luke to some extent. Maybe Edward [Wright?]. Also Al(brecht) Moritz, who discovered Stockhausen and became a devotee, regularly traveling to the annual Kürten sessions.

I remember all of these, in fact I've met a few of them. I remember Utah Bill and Al Moritz were particularly important as sources on contemporary composers.

There was a young man (or so he was portrayed) "Joe" or something iirc, who was an absolute Mozart fanatic.

Yeah, Joe Moreno ("admirador de Mozart" as he styled himself). I also remember Lynn Sislo, a very open-minded listener and enthusiast who was willing to listen to anything; Jose "La Mano Gaucha" Carrero, another helpful modernist; John Bleau (whose tastes were very similar to mine at the time); Rob Antecki, a young guy obsessed with 1-hit wonder Joaquin Rodrigo; Alice/Owlice (whom I once met in Philadelphia); and I think Steve Molino was also there.

And a "Joshua Lilly", who was convinced that Salieri was a much greater
 composer than Mozart

LOL, I used to call him "Lilly von Lillydorf." Good source on obscure 18th c. composers though.

...The indefatigable Amazon modern music reviewer "scarecrow" (Frank Abbinanti) may have posted there  (if not at CI, then definitely at a successor), though I can't recall his nick.

He was actually a composer. He was at one of the later forums. His gnarled writing style and radical politics got him into spats with some of the other posters.

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

And, as long as we're going down Memory Lane, here are some others I remember:

Barry Zukerman: Big fan of the Romantic symphonists. I was his near-neighbor when living in NJ/Philly, and we went to some Philly Orch concerts together. A very cool, friendly guy.

JohnQPublic: A composer who had a tenured university job. Seemed very knowledgeable. I actually translated a program note about him from Czech when I was living in Prague (yes, he was being performed there).

Eliot Morgan: Another modern music guru, but also a troll and provocateur. Didn't bother me, but some people had problems with him.

Ellie Edwards: I think she was a singer from Massachusetts. Used to get into arguments with Lynn S.

Dennis Spath: Easygoing retired guy who had the strange habit of overcapitalizing his sentences ("My first Girlfriend was a Dancer who studied Piano" - maybe he was a native German speaker?).

Roger Beare: A Canadian known for being excessively wordy and politically liberal. It seemed that he had two purposes in life: listening to music and arguing with conservatives.

Frank Aderholt: Conservative Southern gentleman who argued with Roger Beare a lot.

Bart, Bassoonist: A teenager who played the bassoon (I think he was aiming for music school). I think he also argued with Roger.

Fred, Ted and Susan: A trio of trolls who seemingly came as a set. I could never figure out what they were doing there.

[T. D.]

Thanks, you have a great memory. I recall those posters vividly, but only now that you've mentioned them. 

Lynn Sislo changed her nick to "Auntie Lynn" iirc and concurrently switched her persona from vamp to materteral (I had to look up the female equivalent of avuncular  ).

Jose Carrero "La Mano" was essential in getting me interested in modern classical, and we seemed to share common tastes in movies, etc. He disappeared from the forum, and UB later told me off-board that Jose had relocated to China to teach English or something. Interesting fellow but he seemed to be seeking a direction.

[Spotted Horses]

I think I'm technically still registered at cmg as well but haven't tried to log in for a very long time.

I emailed the administrator asking to have my registration activated, no response. The site is effectively dead, they don't want anyone new. I had the same result when I tried to get my registration activated years ago.

[Spotted Horses]

I must say I am mortified, how do you people retrieve all of these names from the distant past, almost all of which bring up vivid memories for me. Dennis Spath was the "old coot" I spoke of, who doted over Kelsey in "Ionia." I learned of the death of Roger Beare on one of the subsequent forums, after CI vanished. Fred and Ted came as a pair, but I didn't think of them as trolls. Joe Moreno, Eliot Morgan, Ellie Edwards, La Mano Gaucha, JohnQPublic, Steve Molino, Frank E. Berglas, Auntie Lynne, Frank Anderholt, it's a whole vanished world that flickers to reality in our memories.

[Jo498]

Don't get me started on all the characters from rmcr...I rather liked Matthew Tepper and Simon Roberts (from whom I bought CDs on eBay). On the other side of the spectrum Dan Koren, Tom Deacon, ...

I totally lost respect for rmcr when many of their piano gurus, most hilariously former record company honcho (Philips Great Pianists of the 20th Century) Tom Deacon, fell for the Joyce Hatto hoax hook, line and sinker.  Since then I avoided it, and Usenet in general because rmcc had become moribund.

I remember all this quite well having been on rec.music.* hierarchy since 1995 or even 1994. But I never saw Classicalinsites and the name doesn't ring a bell. At least in the late 1990s my connection was usually so slow that I was happier with text-based services like usenet instead of colorful websites.

[T. D.]

Many of those old-time classical message board posters just weren't into Usenet. Relatively few of them followed newsgroups.
Maybe they were intimidated by the interface (e.g. newsreader), but development of Dejanews and Google Groups didn't increase interest either. I never really understood, but perhaps people felt there was more "sense of community" on a message board. There were a lot of trolls, spammers and sociopaths on Usenet, though in hindsight nothing compared to  what eventually devolved on "social media". 

[DavidW]

I must say I am mortified, how do you people retrieve all of these names from the distant past, almost all of which bring up vivid memories for me. Dennis Spath was the "old coot" I spoke of, who doted over Kelsey in "Ionia." I learned of the death of Roger Beare on one of the subsequent forums, after CI vanished. Fred and Ted came as a pair, but I didn't think of them as trolls. Joe Moreno, Eliot Morgan, Ellie Edwards, La Mano Gaucha, JohnQPublic, Steve Molino, Frank E. Berglas, Auntie Lynne, Frank Anderholt, it's a whole vanished world that flickers to reality in our memories.

I can't speak for everyone but Steve and I were good friends.  Barry and I would mail each other ripped cds, especially of Ormandy (since we are both Ormandy fans). 

Was JQP the one with the funky chicken avatar btw?

[(poco) Sforzando]

I remember many of these and had good friendships with some. Ralph Stein and I went to many NYPhil concerts together. (He would buy two subscriptions, invite a friend, and our deal was that I would buy dinner.) Frank Berglas and I were quite friendly, and we often had dinner at a little Chinese place near Lincoln Center before an opera at the Met. I knew Ellie Edwards very well, and I still keep up with Steve Molino quite often.

I even met Utah Bill, Owlice, and Joshua Lilly on their trips to NYC. There was also Rob Antecki from Michigan, who was obsessed by the music of Rodrigo and claimed to be a composer. He sent me some of his music and thus disproved his claim. Among the composers, I of course knew Karl and we remain good friends. And I have enormous respect for Luke, whose book I eagerly await. There was another young German composer who called himself Rappy (Ralph something or other, I can't quite remember) who was extremely talented.

Barry Zukerman and I met on several occasions. I remember that he, Ralph Stein, Steve Molino, and I agreed to meet for lunch at a few high-end NYC restaurants. Barry and I had a falling out over his political views (I was right in the sense of being correct; he was right in the sense of being conservative. I could construct a better zeugma on that, but my poor mind is not up to the task.) Barry was also active on CMG, as was the ludicrous Mark Anstendig with his LPs. (Steve Molino and I made endless fun of Mark Anstendig.) That site was moderated by an aggressivley right-wing elderly woman named Corlyss Drinkard; who was close friends with Barry I called myself Alban Berg over there, which was rather immodest, and I jokingly called her Clueless Drunkard the immoderate moderator, which for some reason she didn't like. When I finally quit that board, Clueless engineered it so that I could never come back. (All these boards merge together in my mind these days.)

Joe Moreno the avid Mozartean from Berkeley, CA, was a strange case. He and I were friendly for a time both on the boards and over email and I liked him immensely, but he always eschewed personal meetings, whether in NYC or San Fran. He seems to have permanently disappeared, and I discovered a posting by him many years ago where he said he was suffering from schizophrenia.

Mel Merkel, ardent Wagnerian, many years deceased, was always a thorn in my side with his contempt for Mozart and me (though he wrote me a very nice email, and eventually confessed he had never actually heard any Mozart operas; it was enough for him to despise them). Poor guy had it rough, especially losing a leg when he burned himself on a heating pad. Though Mel was always ready to insult everybody and everything, saying it was just words on the Internet and nothing to take seriously, he went through paroxysms of outrage when someone on the boards made a joke about his amputation. Guess he could dish it out but not take it. He eventually took "Iago" as his handle here.

Lynn Sislo and Auntie Lynn were I believe two different persons. Auntie claimed to be a pianist for the San Francisco Ballet. I could not verify this.

All these memories . . . .