The Snowshoed Sibelius

[Mirror Image]

Me too John. Great set.

[DavidW]

First listening ever to these two works.

Which two works?

[Madiel]

I was trying to locate a comic strip that I remember from 1970's or '80's which I vividly recall--alas, I couldn't find it online to share.  It was a Hagar The Horrible cartoon of Hagar (a Viking) walking along with his skinny Viking cohort.  The first two or three frames were of them trodding along through the countryside getting soaked in the rain.  The next frame, they were walking along on a nice sunny day.  Last frame:  they were back to tromping along in the rain with Hagar saying to his friend "That was summertime in England".


PD

The word "sky" is borrowed into English from the Vikings.

I kid you not, its original meaning is actually "cloud".

[Madiel]

Duh... no really.... I had NO IDEA

You clearly give that impression.

[Zarzuela]

When did they remaster it?  For what its worth, I read some mixed-comments about at least a recent remastering.

I have the 1960's as part of a 2010 set from the Bernstein's "Symphonies" set.

PD

The remastered edition came out in 2015. I also have the Symphonies box and wondered, like you, how much better the remastered Sibelius symphonies were. In the end, I paid more than I should have (though much less than what some scalpers were asking for) to get the 2015 box, since I love these performances. Maybe I'm just trying to convince myself, but I think the remastered versions are markedly better, with more detail and transparency. Definitely worth picking up if you find the box going for a reasonable price.

[krummholz]

But which Davis?  My go to set is Davis/BSO but I dislike Davis/LSO.  It lacks everything that made the Boston set great.

Davis/BSO FTW!

[André]

Which two works?

Both. The quartet is a rather austere work, the quartet more expansive both in structure and emotionally. 'Brahmsian' is an adjective that came to my mind. The slow portion about halfway through the last movement is pure Elgar though.

(I know, John, I know... )

[North Star]

First listening ever to these two works.

Both. The quartet is a rather austere work, the quartet more expansive both in structure and emotionally. 'Brahmsian' is an adjective that came to my mind. The slow portion about halfway through the last movement is pure Elgar though.

(I know, John, I know... )

David's confusion is understandable since the image for the Elgar SQ & Piano Quintet by Sorrel Quartet with Ian Brown isn't showing, and this is the Sibelius thread. 

[DavidW]

David's confusion is understandable since the image for the Elgar SQ & Piano Quintet by Sorrel Quartet with Ian Brown isn't showing, and this is the Sibelius thread. 

And the answer of "both" didn't help either!

[Symphonic Addict]

Winter is perfectly audible from works like the symphonies 4, 6 and partly 7, the Violin Concerto, Tapiola! I feel a good deal of summer in symphonies 1, 2, 5, The Oceanides, En Saga, etc. Oh, and spring on Spring Song, Karelia Suite (for mentioning some). And what about fall? Symphony No. 3, perhaps, and part of the 4th? Luonnotar. In this regard I don't know enough to assess. By comparing, I detect the best stuff related to winter. I couldn't live without any of them!

[Mirror Image]

I don't think there's anything wrong with comparing a lot of Sibelius' music with winter. He came from that landscape and his music evokes nature, so I don't see any of problems with it.

[amw]

I wouldn't associate the 6th with winter, except maybe of the nuclear type; the 6th is a completely desolate work, whereas winter is full of life (especially in a place like Finland where much animal & plant life is adapted for winter survival). I also don't think of the 4th as particularly "wintery"—the only Sibelius symphony that strikes me that way is maybe the 3rd since it has a couple of passages that sound like swirling snowflakes, in the outer movements, but then the middle movement's goth folk dance vibes undercut that. The 4th and 6th seem like subjective, inward-looking emotional statements with little to do with the natural landscape. Sibelius may have disagreed with that assessment, of course.

[calyptorhynchus]

Sibelius is said to have said that one of the movements of the 6th (presumably the 1st) should be played so as to 'smell like the first snow of winter'.

[Mirror Image]

I wouldn't associate the 6th with winter, except maybe of the nuclear type; the 6th is a completely desolate work, whereas winter is full of life (especially in a place like Finland where much animal & plant life is adapted for winter survival). I also don't think of the 4th as particularly "wintery"—the only Sibelius symphony that strikes me that way is maybe the 3rd since it has a couple of passages that sound like swirling snowflakes, in the outer movements, but then the middle movement's goth folk dance vibes undercut that. The 4th and 6th seem like subjective, inward-looking emotional statements with little to do with the natural landscape. Sibelius may have disagreed with that assessment, of course.

You make the 6th sound incredibly enticing. Maybe you should make some classical videos instead of that charlatan Hurwitz! I'd definitely subscribe to your channel. But, yes, I'm in agreement with you that not all of Sibelius is desolate, wintry landscapes. Some of it is far too personal for that kind of imagery.

[Madiel]

I don't think there's anything wrong with comparing a lot of Sibelius' music with winter. He came from that landscape and his music evokes nature, so I don't see any of problems with it.

Again, a statement like "he came from that landscape" makes it sound like Helsinki is perpetually locked in snow, or that Sibelius mysteriously stopped composing for a large part of the year.

It's appropriate enough for works where Sibelius actually said something, but I just wish the winter association didn't get slapped on quite so many compositions.

[Pohjolas Daughter]

Info can be found here:

https://www.discogs.com/Sibelius-Bernstein-Remastered-Edition-The-Symphonies/release/10800782

Thank you!

The remastered edition came out in 2015. I also have the Symphonies box and wondered, like you, how much better the remastered Sibelius symphonies were. In the end, I paid more than I should have (though much less than what some scalpers were asking for) to get the 2015 box, since I love these performances. Maybe I'm just trying to convince myself, but I think the remastered versions are markedly better, with more detail and transparency. Definitely worth picking up if you find the box going for a reasonable price.

Thank you for your comments Zarzuela.  Will keep an eye out for it. 

PD

[Pohjolas Daughter]

The word "sky" is borrowed into English from the Vikings.

I kid you not, its original meaning is actually "cloud".

Interesting!  Now what would have happened if the English had adopted a word meaning "sun" instead?   

PD

[Mirror Image]

Again, a statement like "he came from that landscape" makes it sound like Helsinki is perpetually locked in snow, or that Sibelius mysteriously stopped composing for a large part of the year.

It's appropriate enough for works where Sibelius actually said something, but I just wish the winter association didn't get slapped on quite so many compositions.

Here's my beef with what you're writing: people can think what they want to when they hear Sibelius' music. That's their own prerogative. If they hear a stampede of elk going through a forest or the windblown icy landscape of Siberia in his music, this is their own impressions and perspective. You may not agree with it, but saying you get tired of hearing the winter associations in Sibelius' music won't change what other people hear in his music.

[Roasted Swan]

Here's my beef with what you're writing: people can think what they want to when they hear Sibelius' music. That's their own prerogative. If they hear a stampede of elk going through a forest or the windblown icy landscape of Siberia in his music, this is their own impressions and perspective. You may not agree with it, but saying you get tired of hearing the winter associations in Sibelius' music won't change what other people hear in his music.

I actually agree with both sides of this debate.  My favourite "for example" is Grieg's Peer Gynt "Morning Mood" which folk like to imagine epitomises a Norwegian Fjord.  Whereas in fact in the Ibsen play the scene is set in the Desert.  So a case where we have "learnt" an association where none existed.  Not that that devalues people who really do "see" a fjord or enjoy the music more imagining a fjord but it is easy to fall into a sort of sign-post/shortcut musical imagery - film music relies on the listener/viewer knowing such and such a phrase portrays menace/love/heroics.....

[Brian]

Old American films set in London (Sherlock Holmes etc) always show it encased in fog.

My understanding is that the "London fog" of late 1800s England and Sherlock's time was a very real, but very different phenomenon - smog from all the pollution of Victorian-era industry.