The Snowshoed Sibelius

[Jaakko Keskinen]

Ken, your whole approach of "it's okay to say what you want to about a composer at any given time" is growing rather tiresome. We all understand you don't like this composer's music or Debussy's La Mer. There's no need to beat a dead horse. The crazy thing is you somehow think it's funny what you're saying about these composer's whose music you don't like, but, for me, I'm still waiting on the punchline.

I actually agree with Ken. I could see myself criticizing some other composer in a same way 71dB critiziced Sibelius, without seeing nothing wrong with it. I certainly wouldn't call Sibelius a conman but also wouldn't call him a super genius high above criticism.

[Jaakko Keskinen]

Sure, we can express opinions, but whenever you continuously jab and poke fun at music I enjoy for no apparent reason other than to amuse yourself, then it becomes something more than merely 'expressing an opinion.' Anyway, you believe I've been rude? How so? I think you're unnecessarily rude every time you cut down a composer I enjoy for the umpteenth time, but did I ever tell you to "put a sock in it"? No, I held my tongue with hopes that you would somehow realize that you're only alienating yourself from other people here who would actually like to have a decent conversation with you.

Umm, what about that time you ridiculed my opinion about John Williams being a genius? Isn't that poking fun about music I enjoy? 

[Karl Henning]

. . . I certainly wouldn't call Sibelius a conman but also wouldn't call him a super genius high above criticism.

Well, that's an improvement, certainly 

And, folks:  what is it that happens at the start of the Sixth Symphony, if not two-voice counterpoint?

[Karl Henning]

Umm, what about that time you ridiculed my opinion about John Williams being a genius? Isn't that poking fun about music I enjoy? 

Hey, I don't feel that Williams is above criticism, either 

[Jaakko Keskinen]

Hey, I don't feel that Williams is above criticism, either 

Certainly not! And I have to admit, when you showed how similar Williams's "Dune sea" from Star Wars was to Rite of the spring, that wasn't Williams's finest moment. Hard to think of that as a coincidence.

[Karl Henning]

Certainly not! And I have to admit, when you showed how similar Williams's "Dune sea" from Star Wars was to Rite of the spring, that wasn't Williams's finest moment. Hard to think of that as a coincidence.

Spoken like a gentleman! 

Williams has certainly written a good number of catchy, characterful melodies; the man has talent.

[Mirror Image]

Umm, what about that time you ridiculed my opinion about John Williams being a genius? Isn't that poking fun about music I enjoy? 

That was awhile back and my outlook, especially in regards to formulating and expressing any kind of criticism has changed since then.

[Mirror Image]

I actually agree with Ken. I could see myself criticizing some other composer in a same way 71dB critiziced Sibelius, without seeing nothing wrong with it. I certainly wouldn't call Sibelius a conman but also wouldn't call him a super genius high above criticism.

Well, I wouldn't say Sibelius is 'above criticism' either, but, let's face it, any composer worth their salt is going to face some kind of criticism from someone at some point, but the 'conman' comment certainly was beyond what I'm used to hearing.

Anyway...back to the music.

[Karl Henning]

See, I find this a bit mystifying. Because it's the structural ingenuity that draws me in the first place.

Rigid rhythmic structures? I listened to the 3rd symphony last week, and was reminded yet again that the first movement is one of my favourite things by anyone, ever, and a huge part of the reason for that is the amazing way the music starts and stops. To me, Sibelius has more control of tempo than almost any other composer, to the extent that he can create a sense of multiple tempos operating at the same time, with different parts of the music moving at different speeds.

To take another example, the first movement of the 2nd symphony impresses me because of the way the main theme sounds like an introduction. That's not an easy trick at all, to make you believe that there's an introduction, and then you start thinking "when is the main material going to arrive?" and then eventually at some point your brain switches and realises there was no introduction at all, and that he started with a fragmented version of the theme before integrating it (the opposite of what most composers had done, although Beethoven in the Eroica finale did something similar). It's an exercise in presenting the counterpoint lines separately first!

I also really don't understand how the number of instruments playing is relevant. It's actually harder to achieve your musical and structural goals with an economy of means, rather than throwing a whole booming orchestra around. Sibelius is to my mind perhaps the greatest orchestrator, and that's precisely because he uses his colours very carefully and delicately.

Thanks for this post, much to assent to . . . in particular, yes, Sibelius is a marvelously specific orchestrator.

[Jaakko Keskinen]

Sibelius is a marvelously specific orchestrator.

Agreed. In terms of orchestration I Would say he's at his very Best in symphonies 4 and 6, pohjolas daughter, nightride, luonnotar and oceanides.

[Karl Henning]

Love the bass clarinet and harp in the Sixth: masterly and subtle!

[Madiel]

"separated counterpoint" is meaningless to me because what happens "now" is relevant to me in music. What happened 20 seconds ago is distant history, mostly forgotten. This may explain Why I don't care for some composers (those who use "temporarily separated structures" extensively). Also, harmony and rhythm are more important for me than melody because I am a mathematical person rather than linguistic.

Well, yes, if your musical experience is that much in the here and now, I wouldn't think Sibelius is for you particularly, nor many of the other composers that I respond to.

You're into vertical music, and I'm into horizontal...

[Karl Henning]

I don't much understand that objection, either.  There is continuous "now" in Sibelius (even in the symphonies) 

[71 dB]

Sure, we can express opinions, but whenever you continuously jab and poke fun at music I enjoy for no apparent reason other than to amuse yourself, then it becomes something more than merely 'expressing an opinion.'

I don't want to burst your ego, but my opinions about Sibelius have absolutely nothing to do with you. I have nothing against people enjoying the music of Sibelius. It's cool you do enjoy Sibelius (a composer of my own nationality).

I don't think I have criticized Sibelius "continuously". I'm not having fun either. I'm telling how I feel. I have told how I find some of Sibelius' music less than awesome, but I also have said some of Sibelius' music I do enjoy. I'm not officially calling Sibelius a conman, some of Sibelius' music gives me such associations and I can't help it. I wish I enjoyed Sibelius more, of course. Perhaps some day I will.

Sorry about making you feel bad. I didn't realise my opinions have such power. 

[Karl Henning]

I don't want to burst your ego, but my opinions about Sibelius have absolutely nothing to do with you.

(You were not addressing me but...) this confirms my thesis.  Carry on, Poju   

[71 dB]

Certainly not! And I have to admit, when you showed how similar Williams's "Dune sea" from Star Wars was to Rite of the spring, that wasn't Williams's finest moment. Hard to think of that as a coincidence.

Movie music composers do not need to write 100 % original music. They need to know what to steel. Why? Because Lucas could have used Stravinsky's music on Star Wars. Instead he wanted "Korngoldian" music by John Williams, where some bits are "stolen" from appropriate sources. The goal is not original music, but as good movie music for the movie as possible. I'd say John Williams delivered.

[Mirror Image]

Who cares about John Williams in the Sibelius thread...

Anyway, here's an idea, let's get back to Sibelius, so no one has heard the two new cycles from Rattle and Kamu?

[71 dB]

Who cares about John Williams in the Sibelius thread...

Alberich.

Anyway, here's an idea, let's get back to Sibelius,..-

Okay. Yesterday there was a rather interesting program on TV about Sibelius' symphonies, how they evolved and how Sibelius as a person evolved. Hannu Lintu was the commentator. Even if I don't worship every note by Sibelius, I found this program interesting. For example, the fourth symphony was widely rejected as a weird work and people's faith in Sibelius was restored by the fifth symphony. After this program there was another one about how French people have disliked Sibelius, even calling him the worst composer in the world. Crazy. 

[Karl Henning]

Even if I don't worship every note by Sibelius

What, you don't worship every note by that conman?  And yet others are being rude to you, right?

[Ken B]

What, you don't worship every note by that conman?  And yet others are being rude to you, right?

If you think about it,  praising a composer others dislike carries a stronger implication of criticism of other listeners than does criticizing one.  Most critics couch their complaints about with disclaimers, or say they just miss what is surely there. Praise implies the praiser gets what the other misses.