Works you hate by composers you love

[Joe Barron]

Charles Ives, "They Are There!" Just an embarrassment.

[Mark]

Ah, yes ...... the YOUNG Zimerman! 

He was better when he was younger.

[Mark]

Mark, I agree with Bonehelm that Chopin's original orchestration is problematic.  I seriously wonder how significantly his orchestration is "touched-up" by others when it's performed or recorded in modern times .........

Ooooh, I wouldn't know anything about 'touching up', but I do know that in the hands of the performers I cited, that 'problematic orchestration' no longer seems such a problem. Zimerman delivers the piano part superbly, utterly diverting you from any poor or awkward writing for other instruments.

[Florestan]

I think part of the problem with Chopin's PCs is that some of us expect them to be what Mozart or Beethoven used to call PC --- which is simply not the case. Chopin was unique in everything he composed, but strikingly so in his PCs. My take on them is that the orchestration is not weak in the least, it is exactly what he intended. In order to fully appreciate them, we must get rid of any Mozartian, Beethovenian or Brahmsian orchestration patterns... and just let Chopin's music flow. I, for one, absolutely love his PCs, especially the 1st.

My --- very humble --- two cents, anyway.

BTW, try this one.

[karlhenning]

I think part of the problem with Chopin's PCs is that some of us expect them to be what Mozart or Beethoven used to call PC --- which is simply not the case. Chopin was unique in everything he composed, but strikingly so in his PCs. My take on them is that the orchestration is not weak in the least, it is exactly what he intended. In order to fully appreciate them, we must get rid of any Mozartian, Beethovenian or Brahmsian orchestration patterns... and just let Chopin's music flow. I, for one, absolutely love his PCs, especially the 1st.

Hearty accord!

[orbital]

me too, I don't even have a problem wth the extraordinarily long introduction.
About touch ups, at least two reorchestrated versions of the e minor concerto are available.
One by Balakirev (in which the changes are indeed touch ups, barely noticable except that the music is more flowing), and the other by Tausig which is almost radically different. The first movement has some orchestral motiffs non existant in the original. Even some of the piano passages have been delegated to the orchestra or another solo instrument. But that one suffers in the 2nd movement a little bit.

[BachQ]

I think part of the problem with Chopin's PCs is that some of us expect them to be what Mozart or Beethoven used to call PC --- which is simply not the case. Chopin was unique in everything he composed, but strikingly so in his PCs. My take on them is that the orchestration is not weak in the least, it is exactly what he intended. In order to fully appreciate them, we must get rid of any Mozartian, Beethovenian or Brahmsian orchestration patterns... and just let Chopin's music flow. I, for one, absolutely love his PCs, especially the 1st.

My --- very humble --- two cents, anyway.

BTW, try this one.

Excellent post.

You have no idea how continually tempting it is to superimpose upon Chopin's PC's the Mozart/LvB/Brahms notion of "piano concerto."  And, under your rubric, to do so would be catastrophic ........

[Lethevich]

I think part of the problem with Chopin's PCs is that some of us expect them to be what Mozart or Beethoven used to call PC --- which is simply not the case. Chopin was unique in everything he composed, but strikingly so in his PCs. My take on them is that the orchestration is not weak in the least, it is exactly what he intended. In order to fully appreciate them, we must get rid of any Mozartian, Beethovenian or Brahmsian orchestration patterns... and just let Chopin's music flow. I, for one, absolutely love his PCs, especially the 1st.

I sort of agree. The orchestral part isn't as developed (IMO) as many other composers would make it, but a (relatively) weaker orchestral part does not make it weak music, it needs to be appreciated on its own merits - superb themes, and great pianism...

[matti]

Sibelius, Finlandia

Agreed. But there is another popular work that most experts sneer at (and one which I have not seen mentioned ever on these boards): Valse Triste. It is commonly regarded as one of those pieces S. composed not for art but for money. This may be true, but I think it's a wonderful piece of music in its genre, and a serious one too. Not just for bread and butter.

The works I "hate" are some of the warhorses that are played too often... in commercials, elevators, shopping malls, radio and so on. And indeed, it has to be one heck of a performance if I listen to Beethoven's 5th PC from beginning to end! 

[Norseman]

J.S Bach is one of my favorites (if not the favorite), but a good deal of his religious arias (from cantatas and passions), especially the long-lasting ones in minor, doesn't do much for me..

[karlhenning]

Agreed. But there is another popular work that most experts sneer at (and one which I have not seen mentioned ever on these boards): Valse Triste. It is commonly regarded as one of those pieces S. composed not for art but for money. This may be true, but I think it's a wonderful piece of music in its genre, and a serious one too.

I find it a delightful piece, and I should never have troubled to arrange it for clarinet/violin/piano trio, if I did not like it a great deal.

[matti]

I find it a delightful piece, and I should never have troubled to arrange it for clarinet/violin/piano trio, if I did not like it a great deal.

I'm guessing the clarinet collects most of the sour-sweet honey of the piece in your arrangement.   

[greg]

Works you hate by composers you love

some of Mahler's songs are a bit corny, and i'm not a very big fan of Das Lied von der Erde, although the last couple minutes of the whole thing is the STUFF 

the only thing by Prokofiev i don't care for is probably just the last 2 piano concertos, and for someone who i've heard that much of, it's really unusual. In fact, statistically, he's the most likely to make something i like compared to anyone else

hmmmm..... wut else? i know there's something..... oh yeah, almost forgot. I actually kinda hate the 2nd movement of Mahler's 1st. If he took that movement out and left in the Blumine, that would be really nice

[Gabriel]

In order to fully appreciate them, we must get rid of any Mozartian, Beethovenian or Brahmsian orchestration patterns... and just let Chopin's music flow. I, for one, absolutely love his PCs, especially the 1st.

But... listening to Hummel's piano concertos you get that Chopin didn't start from zero.

Now, about works that I don't like from composers I love (the title of the thread is too violent), Beethoven's string trios would be a fairly good example.

[Mark]

... (the title of the thread is too violent) ...

Deliberately so, my friend: a thread title has to stand out round here if it's to attract posters.

[Mark]

After today rekindling my dislike of Dvorak's Violin Concerto, this work has earned its place in here.

[jurajjak]

Some things I can live without:

Rimsky-Korsakov: Capriccio Espanol
Copland--The Tender Land
Tchaikovsky--Piano Concerto 1 (I will second this, as it's been mentioned already)
Prokofiev--Symphony #1 (not a bad piece, of course, I can just no longer listen to it)
Ravel--Noble and Sentimental Waltzes
Korngold--The Sea Hawk (and his other film scores, too)
Shostakovich--The Limpid Stream (perhaps his worst piece?)


andrew

[Florestan]

But... listening to Hummel's piano concertos you get that Chopin didn't start from zero.

Taking in account his dislike of his contemporary German music I doubt he was aware or appreciative of Hummel's PC.

[karlhenning]

After today rekindling my dislike of Dvorak's Violin Concerto, this work has earned its place in here.

Loathe it again, for the first time . . . .

[rappy]

Let me add Beethoven's 10th violin sonata, which is just boring in my opinion. He should have kept his Kreutzer-style - soft and lyrical Beethoven is nothing for me. If I want such innocent beauty, I listen to the menuet of Mendelssohn's Italian Symphony.