What, in no uncertain terms, is "bad" orchestration?

[Maciek]

Does Chopin's use of col legno predate Berlioz? ; )

According to Wikipedia, yes. (Though it would be by less than a year.)

[Gurn Blanston]

According to Wikipedia, yes. (Though it would be by less than a year.)

Haydn beat them all to the punch in symphony #67:

Col legno

[Maciek]

Ha!

[Karl Henning]

Cheers, gents!

[springrite]

Which would you prefer between good orchestration of bad music and bad orchestration of good music?

[Karl Henning]

I get good orchestration of bad music all the time at the cinema . . . .

[mc ukrneal]

Which would you prefer between good orchestration of bad music and bad orchestration of good music?

If it's good music, how bad can the orchestration be?

[ibanezmonster]

I get good orchestration of bad music all the time at the cinema . . . .

True. 

[jochanaan]

LOL!  Bump. 

Since there has been some discussion on "bad and good orchestrators" on the Brahms' thread. 

Folks who think Brahms' orchestration bad generally haven't played his music or studied his scores.

[Brahmsian]

Folks who think Brahms' orchestration bad generally haven't played his music or studied his scores.

For sure.  I've just always loved this thread title name.    And I figured the "bad"/"good" orchestration talk should be diverted away from the JB composer thread. 

[NorthNYMark]

Folks who think Brahms' orchestration bad generally haven't played his music or studied his scores.

Just for the record, I neither read music nor play an instrument, but I absolutely love Brahms's orchestration.  He tends to provide a warm, rich sound and texture that I find particularly compelling.  Calling Brahms a bad orchestrator (in relation to composers like Mahler or Rimsky-Korsakov), it seems to me, would be a bit like calling Rembrandt a bad colorist in relation to, say, Gauguin or Matisse--one doesn't need an explosion of post-impressionist "color" to be a great colorist, in either music or painting.

[EigenUser]

Question: What, in no uncertain terms, is "bad" orchestration?
Answer: This. Can you spot it?



This is a clip from 1st violin part of a famous piece I played in my university's orchestra five years ago. Feel free to guess which piece (I'm sure most all of you know it). I'll post it if no one guesses/cares.* A favorite work of mine, but it has some pretty awkward writing in it, especially for strings. Totally doable, but awkward. And, in this case, slightly painful.


*An ad/trailer for the recently-renovated Mystery Scores thread, which can be found here if anyone is interested:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3125.5200.html

[jochanaan]

Just for the record, I neither read music nor play an instrument, but I absolutely love Brahms's orchestration.  He tends to provide a warm, rich sound and texture that I find particularly compelling.  Calling Brahms a bad orchestrator (in relation to composers like Mahler or Rimsky-Korsakov), it seems to me, would be a bit like calling Rembrandt a bad colorist in relation to, say, Gauguin or Matisse--one doesn't need an explosion of post-impressionist "color" to be a great colorist, in either music or painting.

I like the way you think!

[jochanaan]

Question: What, in no uncertain terms, is "bad" orchestration?
Answer: This. Can you spot it?



This is a clip from 1st violin part of a famous piece I played in my university's orchestra five years ago. Feel free to guess which piece (I'm sure most all of you know it). I'll post it if no one guesses/cares.* A favorite work of mine, but it has some pretty awkward writing in it, especially for strings. Totally doable, but awkward. And, in this case, slightly painful.


*An ad/trailer for the recently-renovated Mystery Scores thread, which can be found here if anyone is interested:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3125.5200.html

You're referring to the pizzicati on high D# and E, aren't you?  Yeah, playable but I wouldn't think the audience could hear any pitches on those high pizz.! To get a real pitch up there, you'd about have to double it with piccolo. 

And this is probably one of those pieces that, as soon as someone reveals its identity, I'll kick myself and say "Oh yeah, THAT one!" -- Or is it Enesco's First Romanian Rhapsody?

[Karl Henning]

Just for the record, I neither read music nor play an instrument, but I absolutely love Brahms's orchestration.  He tends to provide a warm, rich sound and texture that I find particularly compelling.  Calling Brahms a bad orchestrator (in relation to composers like Mahler or Rimsky-Korsakov), it seems to me, would be a bit like calling Rembrandt a bad colorist in relation to, say, Gauguin or Matisse--one doesn't need an explosion of post-impressionist "color" to be a great colorist, in either music or painting.

An excellent analogy!

[Pat B]

Haydn beat them all to the punch in symphony #67:

Biber used it in Battalia (1673).

Now we'll see if somebody knows a composer who did it in the 1500s.

[EigenUser]

You're referring to the pizzicati on high D# and E, aren't you?  Yeah, playable but I wouldn't think the audience could hear any pitches on those high pizz.! To get a real pitch up there, you'd about have to double it with piccolo. 

And this is probably one of those pieces that, as soon as someone reveals its identity, I'll kick myself and say "Oh yeah, THAT one!" -- Or is it Enesco's First Romanian Rhapsody?

Oh, I forgot about this. That is exactly what I was referring to. Trying to play it loud enough to hear is painful since the E string is so thin and plucking a string that high up creates a lot of tension in it.

The piece is Gershwin's An American in Paris.

[jochanaan]

Oh, I forgot about this. That is exactly what I was referring to. Trying to play it loud enough to hear is painful since the E string is so thin and plucking a string that high up creates a lot of tension in it.

The piece is Gershwin's An American in Paris.

Of course! *kicks self in rear end*   Gershwin obviously was not a violinist.

[ibanezmonster]

Biber used it in Battalia (1673).

Now we'll see if somebody knows a composer who did it in the 1500s.

Good luck with that. Same for finding an earlier use of polytonality.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Oh, I forgot about this. That is exactly what I was referring to. Trying to play it loud enough to hear is painful since the E string is so thin and plucking a string that high up creates a lot of tension in it.

The piece is Gershwin's An American in Paris.

And very abrupt shifts between pizz and arco.