Elgar's Hillside

Started by Mark, September 20, 2007, 02:03:01 AM

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Mirror Image

#1880
In spite of my dismissal of Slatkin, I plan on getting this box set out and taking it for a spin...



Will definitely listen to the symphonies and work my through the other orchestral works in the set. One of the biggest problems I have had with Slatkin is the recording quality of many of his performances. They're recorded at a low-level, so you have to crank up your amp to hear the more subdued quieter parts, then when the louder parts come charging through you have to adjust your volume. Two words that can sum up his recordings: volume adjustment.

Elgarian

Quote from: Mirror Image on January 01, 2013, 08:16:43 AM
The Falstaff conversation is certainly not a debate. I was more or less asking some questions about it: what do you think of the work? Do you have any favorite performances? Not at all hard to answer, but you calling yourself 'Elgarian,' I figured you'd have more to add other than saying: "I don't have anything to contribute."

I've nothing to contribute to the debate/discussion/conversation/question-and-answer-session because Falstaff isn't a favourite work of mine and I don't feel much inclined to discuss it (especially having been in bed with a temperature for most of the last week, so I want the easy road, not the hard one). I've no difficulty in believing that it's a great piece of music, but for some reason - which I've never understood - I don't warm to it. It's a bit like listening to a conversation which I know is taking place at a high level, but which is about a topic that doesn't catch my interest. That sort of thing.

Since I'm clearly missing something important, I don't believe my opinions on the work, or on recordings of it, would be of any value to anyone. To find the most helpful recommendations of recordings, you need them from people who love the work (and there are plenty of those here), not from someone who's largely indifferent to it. Yes, even if that person has the audacity to call himself 'Elgarian'.

So after all you have elicited an unwilling response from me about Falstaff, albeit a totally vacuous one. But it's the first day of 2013 and I forgive you. Karl's opinion, or Sarge's, will be a much better bet than mine.

Mirror Image

#1882
Quote from: Elgarian on January 01, 2013, 11:00:56 AM
I've nothing to contribute to the debate/discussion/conversation/question-and-answer-session because Falstaff isn't a favourite work of mine and I don't feel much inclined to discuss it (especially having been in bed with a temperature for most of the last week, so I want the easy road, not the hard one). I've no difficulty in believing that it's a great piece of music, but for some reason - which I've never understood - I don't warm to it. It's a bit like listening to a conversation which I know is taking place at a high level, but which is about a topic that doesn't catch my interest. That sort of thing.

Since I'm clearly missing something important, I don't believe my opinions on the work, or on recordings of it, would be of any value to anyone. To find the most helpful recommendations of recordings, you need them from people who love the work (and there are plenty of those here), not from someone who's largely indifferent to it. Yes, even if that person has the audacity to call himself 'Elgarian'.

So after all you have elicited an unwilling response from me about Falstaff, albeit a totally vacuous one. But it's the first day of 2013 and I forgive you. Karl's opinion, or Sarge's, will be a much better bet than mine.

I understand, Elgarian. Sorry to imply that just because you use this screen name you should know and love all of Elgar's music. That's humanly impossible. There are many works by Elgar I don't like  --- the Pomp & Circumstance Marches, The Dream of Gerontius, The Black Knight, and Scene From The Bavarian Highlands. All of these works do nothing for me. I also didn't think much of his music that has narration, but, then again, I never been fond of narration in music anyway, which is why I prefer The Starlight Express Suite to the full blown work. Anyway, we enjoy what we enjoy, and there's no harm or foul in that, after all, what's the point of listening to music that doesn't engage us?

FYI, I do REALLY enjoy The Spirit of England. Next to Sea Pictures, my favorite vocal work of Elgar's.

Elgarian

Quote from: Mirror Image on January 01, 2013, 11:07:53 AM
FYI, I do REALLY enjoy The Spirit of England. Next to Sea Pictures, my favorite vocal work of Elgar's.

Well that's excellent news. I think it should be an automatic inclusion within the list of accepted Elgar masterpieces, but it's surprisingly neglected. Let us continue to carry the word on!

Mirror Image

Quote from: Elgarian on January 01, 2013, 11:23:14 AM
Well that's excellent news. I think it should be an automatic inclusion within the list of accepted Elgar masterpieces, but it's surprisingly neglected. Let us continue to carry the word on!

The work touched me just within the opening measures. I was hooked. Gibson and co. really nailed this performance I think. Are there any other performances of The Spirit of England that you enjoy? I know Hickox and Lloyd-Jones performed the work, but would be interested to get your opinion on those (if you have heard them).

Elgarian

#1885
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 01, 2013, 11:43:02 AM
The work touched me just within the opening measures. I was hooked. Gibson and co. really nailed this performance I think. Are there any other performances of The Spirit of England that you enjoy? I know Hickox and Lloyd-Jones performed the work, but would be interested to get your opinion on those (if you have heard them).

Yes, I have all those. This is one of those situations where the differences between recordings really counts for something. Hickox/Lott is fine, very musical; but Lott's singing, for all its perfection, doesn't ignite the words. She sings them as musical notes, and very beautifully, but it comes over to me as unemotional. Now I can understand how some people might prefer this rather cooler, more reserved approach in the soprano - you may find it so, yourself. But it's not what I'm looking for.

Lloyd-Jones/Gritton is yet again very different, primarily because the version presented includes one of the movements sung by tenor instead of soprano. Call me narrow if you will, but I can't cope with that. Karl liked it though - I remember he said so somewhere in this thread a while back.

Horses for courses, then. I make no secret of my personal unbounded admiration of Gibson/Cahill, which I can't help believing comes very close to expressing what Elgar had in mind and heart. It comes over as a great musical drama, and was responsible for one of those great transcendent personal musical life-events when I first heard it. The other two recordings are so very different that it's worth hearing them just to see how the different approaches come off.

Mirror Image

Quote from: Elgarian on January 01, 2013, 12:11:07 PM
Yes, I have all those. This is one of those situations where the differences between recordings really counts for something. Hickox/Lott is fine, very musical; but Lott's singing, for all its perfection, doesn't ignite the words. She sings them as musical notes, and very beautifully, but it comes over to me as unemotional. Now I can understand how some people might prefer this rather cooler, more reserved approach in the soprano - you may find it so, yourself. But it's not what I'm looking for.

Lloyd-Jones/Gritton is yet again very different, primarily because the version presented includes one of the movements sung by tenor instead of soprano. Call me narrow if you will, but I can't cope with that. Karl liked it though - I remember he said so somewhere in this thread a while back.

Horses for courses, then. I make no secret of my personal unbounded admiration of Gibson/Cahill, which I can't help believing comes very close to expressing what Elgar had in mind and heart. It comes over as a great musical drama, and was responsible for one of those great transcendent personal musical life-events when I first heard it. The other two recordings are so very different that it's worth hearing them just to see how the different approaches come off.

Many thanks for your feedback. Now, moving onto the Violin Concerto, do you enjoy the work? If yes, do you have a favorite performance? Have you heard Tasmin Little's newest recording? I just bought it.

Elgarian

Quote from: Mirror Image on January 01, 2013, 12:23:27 PM
Many thanks for your feedback. Now, moving onto the Violin Concerto, do you enjoy the work? If yes, do you have a favorite performance? Have you heard Tasmin Little's newest recording? I just bought it.

The violin concerto has been a lifelong source of discovery for me. It would rank in my personal top five favourite pieces of classical music, and I have more versions of it than of any other piece of music. At times I think it may give more insight into Elgar's musical character than any other. It rewards the acquisition of a detailed knowledge of Elgar's biography, his attitude to the feminine, and in particular his relationship with Alice Stuart-Wortley - his 'Windflower'. It's one of those situations where the art and the life run parallel to each other in illuminating ways. My avatar is based on the two 'Windflower' themes of the violin concerto, by the way.

Tasmin Little's is lovely - warm, mature, and deeply considered. No trace of flashy bravado, which is just how it should be. My personal favourite has long been Hugh Bean/Groves:


But I've already said far too much about the Elgar VC here at GMG. If you look back through this thread you'll find an enormous amount of discussion of the VC, and recordings thereof - including The Great Hugh Bean Controversy.

Mirror Image

#1888
Quote from: Elgarian on January 01, 2013, 12:47:18 PM
The violin concerto has been a lifelong source of discovery for me. It would rank in my personal top five favourite pieces of classical music, and I have more versions of it than of any other piece of music. At times I think it may give more insight into Elgar's musical character than any other. It rewards the acquisition of a detailed knowledge of Elgar's biography, his attitude to the feminine, and in particular his relationship with Alice Stuart-Wortley - his 'Windflower'. It's one of those situations where the art and the life run parallel to each other in illuminating ways. My avatar is based on the two 'Windflower' themes of the violin concerto, by the way.

Tasmin Little's is lovely - warm, mature, and deeply considered. No trace of flashy bravado, which is just how it should be. My personal favourite has long been Hugh Bean/Groves:


But I've already said far too much about the Elgar VC here at GMG. If you look back through this thread you'll find an enormous amount of discussion of the VC, and recordings thereof - including The Great Hugh Bean Controversy.

Your feedback is much appreciated. There have been many recent recordings of Elgar's VC. It's good to see this work get more recognition. I have not heard the Hugh Bean performance, but I'll definitely check it out.

Mirror Image

Finally got around to checking out that Hugh Bean/Boult performance and that disc is OOP and too expensive. I'll definitely pass. Of the recent performances I've heard of this work, Znaider/C. Davis sounds really good, but I don't know if this performance has really won me over yet. Znaider's playing is good but there's some disconnect in this performance somewhere. I don't know if it's between Znaider or Davis or where exactly I'm hearing it, but I don't feel this performance yet. Kennedy/Handley remains my favorite at the moment. Don't care much for Kennedy's second performance with Rattle. Given Rattle's track record with British music, I simply can't take him that seriously nor do I feel his heart is in the music. His Britten is quite fine though. I thought the Hahn/C. Davis was too polished and Hahn's tone just wasn't up to par (I've never found her tone that appealing). I look forward to hearing the Tasmin Little/A. Davis recording. Speaking of the VC, what does everyone think about Shaham/Zinman? Positive/negative reactions?

Mirror Image

I'm starting to make some headway on Falstaff. This is still a difficult work to decipher IMHO. I do like a lot of the rhythms Elgar used throughout. The orchestration, as usual, is outstanding. But all of this said, it just doesn't pound me over the head like In the South. I do realize this work is going for a completely different kind of expression. The two sides of Elgar are in constant battle in Falstaff, but there are no winners. The more subdued, lyrical side is interrupted by the violent side. How it all pieces together as whole is what I'm trying to figure out. Let's forget about outside inspirations and what the work is trying to depict, the question is does Falstaff stand on it's own? Is the musical argument a convincing one? Still, these are questions I'm struggling with at the moment.

Elgarian

#1891
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 01, 2013, 07:30:29 PM
Finally got around to checking out that Hugh Bean/Boult performance and that disc is OOP and too expensive. I'll definitely pass.

I just checked, and yes, I see what you mean. It's a tragedy that this 2CD set has been allowed to drift out of print. There was quite a big run on copies of it when we had our last big discussion here a couple of years ago. One thing that might just be worth a shot is for sale here - a single disc manifestation of the same recording, offered by Zoverstocks:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Elgar-Works-for-Violin/dp/B000057A87/ref=sr_1_3?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1357126602&sr=1-3

It's Amazon UK marketplace so there'd be extra postage for you to pay, but this may be the last chance saloon and it might be worth the risk.

Still, the good news is that there are so many fine recordings of the Elgar VC that you can hardly go wrong. The only recording I've found seriously lacking is Hilary Hahn's - hers comes over as flimsy, somehow, and she seems to completely miss the desolation, near-death experience of the cadenza. You could do worse than try Menuhin's legendary recording, with Elgar himself conducting.

But for what it's worth, I've always felt that the key to the VC doesn't lie particularly in multiplicity of recorded performances (I've bought and listened to others, to prevent the music going stale, but Bean/Groves would always have been enough, really). It's a concerto that immensely repays detailed study, partly because of the complexity of the musical drama, and partly because with Elgar the life and the music are so intricately interwoven. I looked back through this thread to find some earlier posts about it - I've posted so much on the subject (and so have others) that it's hard to settle on any one description that might be the most helpful. You might like this one (#575) of a couple of years ago:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.msg409321.html#msg409321

The discussion about the cadenza then continues, #591:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.msg409417.html#msg409417, and again, #593:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.msg409435.html#msg409435

and again, #606:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.msg409775.html#msg409775

and Sarge, at #616, with a lovely description of Solti/Chang:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.msg409921.html#msg409921

In fact it goes on and on. We really did thrash this one to the point of overkill! Hope you find something useful among it all.

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: Elgarian on January 02, 2013, 03:16:06 AM
I just checked, and yes, I see what you mean. It's a tragedy that this 2CD set has been allowed to drift out of print

Indeed, a pity. We few, we happy few who grabbed it two years ago were lucky the great "Bean" discussion happened at a time the twofer was widely available at a modest price. It's every thing you said it was.

Quote from: Elgarian on January 02, 2013, 03:16:06 AM
and Sarge, at #616, with a lovely description of Solti/Chang

Thank you for finding that post. I was about to go hunting for it myself--I want to recommend the Chung/Solti to MI. Bean/Groves, Kennedy/Handley, Chung/Solti...my Elgar VC trinity.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Karl Henning

Of the Opus 68:

QuoteBefore the première Elgar told a reporter, "I have, I think, enjoyed writing it more than any other music I have composed and perhaps for that reason it may prove to be among my better efforts".
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

TheGSMoeller

Quote from: karlhenning on January 02, 2013, 04:58:36 AM
Of the Opus 68:

Thanks for the quote, Karl. I was unaware of his personal stand on the piece. Might make my already enjoyable listens of it even more enjoyable.

Elgarian

#1895
I was trawling through those old discussions we had two or three years ago (fabulous discussions, full of real and meaningful exchange even where disagreement was keen) and came across some posts about the violin sonata. I thought I'd plant a pointer to them here (a) because  both Karl and I enjoy this particular territory so why not encore? And (b) because MI is bound to hit the chamber music soon, and might be interested. Here we go (#791):

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.msg413037.html#msg413037

Then at #793 there are some specific responses to different recordings:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.msg413086.html#msg413086

And in the posts following there are some good things from Sarge about alternatives. And to my amazement I find that I wrote a detailed discussion of Lydia Mordkovitch's astonishingly fine recording of the violin sonata, here (#801). Talk about unstoppable!:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.msg413129.html#msg413129



Karl Henning

Quote from: Elgarian on January 02, 2013, 07:10:52 AM
I was trawling through those old discussions we had two or three years ago (fabulous discussions, full of real and meaningful exchange even where disagreement was keen) and came across some posts about the violin sonata. I thought I'd plant a pointer to them here (a) because  both Karl and I enjoy this particular territory so why not encore? And (b) because MI is bound to hit the chamber music soon, and might be interested. Here we go (#791):

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.msg413037.html#msg413037

It must likely have been that very post which put me on to the Mordkovich disc, Alan. And thanks for the revisitation, because, strain my aubergines if it isn't time I reeled in that Helios disc of the Nash Ensemble . . . .
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

71 dB

Quote from: Elgarian on January 02, 2013, 03:16:06 AM
It's a tragedy that this 2CD set has been allowed to drift out of print.

Luckily this set is included in EMI's 30 CD "Elgar Box" (discs 6 and 12). That's how I have those performances.  :)
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Elgarian

Quote from: karlhenning on January 02, 2013, 07:19:07 AM
strain my aubergines if it isn't time I reeled in that Helios disc of the Nash Ensemble . . . .

If for no other reason, you need it for that fabulous Atkinson Grimshaw cover.

Mirror Image

Thanks Alan for all the feedback concerning Elgar's VC. If you noticed, I didn't like the Hahn/Davis performance either. :) As for the chamber works, I've just got one recording with the Nash Ensemble on Hyperion of the Piano Quintet and Violin Sonata. I've listened to this recording once and enjoyed it, but don't enjoy it as much as his orchestral music.