Elgar's Hillside

[71 dB]

The difference here is you're talking to someone who hasn't 'overlooked' anything and has heard almost every nook and cranny from Elgar's oeuvre. As to whether the composer does much for me these days is another topic altogether, but don't mistake me for someone who hasn't heard the music, because I have.

I didn't think you haven't heard the music. Of course you have.  I mean that Elgar seems a composer whose works are strongly divided into the "better ones" and the "lesser ones" and there's this believe that a lot of Elgar works are just "lesser." These works are easily overlooked. When you listen to them you don't get into the music properly. Certainly it is the case that some Elgar works are better than others (like it is with every other composers!) and I enjoy some works more than others, but I nevertheless enjoy pretty much everything Elgar wrote (well, the Powick Asylum polkas perhaps takes a crazy person to enjoy...).

[Mirror Image]

I didn't think you haven't heard the music. Of course you have.  I mean that Elgar seems a composer whose works are strongly divided into the "better ones" and the "lesser ones" and there's this believe that a lot of Elgar works are just "lesser." These works are easily overlooked. When you listen to them you don't get into the music properly. Certainly it is the case that some Elgar works are better than others (like it is with every other composers!) and I enjoy some works more than others, but I nevertheless enjoy pretty much everything Elgar wrote (well, the Powick Asylum polkas perhaps takes a crazy person to enjoy...).

I guess that's where we're different. Even my absolute favorite composers produced works that I do not like (or enjoy as much as others). If I like a piece of music, it means it's reached me, otherwise, it's still floating in space somewhere. Just because I love this or that composer dearly doesn't mean that I'm not going to run across works that I feel aren't inspired or worth hearing again. That's just the way it is.

[71 dB]

I guess that's where we're different. Even my absolute favorite composers produced works that I do not like (or enjoy as much as others). If I like a piece of music, it means it's reached me, otherwise, it's still floating in space somewhere. Just because I love this or that composer dearly doesn't mean that I'm not going to run across works that I feel aren't inspired or worth hearing again. That's just the way it is.

Well, I understand what you say, but I have a hard time finding music I don't like from my favorite composer just as I like every single movie by my favorite director Steven Spielberg. Surely I don't enjoy "Always" nearly as much as "AI - Artificial Intelligence", but I enjoy it anyway.

[Mirror Image]

Well, I understand what you say, but I have a hard time finding music I don't like from my favorite composer just as I like every single movie by my favorite director Steven Spielberg. Surely I don't enjoy "Always" nearly as much as "AI - Artificial Intelligence", but I enjoy it anyway.

One of the problems I've encountered with listeners, especially ones attached to a specific composer, which, obviously will be Elgar in your case, is that they listen as if blinders were covering their ears. I call this the 'fan syndrome' where one's own judgement or taste is somehow put on hold or reserve because one is simply awestruck by a composer with whom they believe every not the composer wrote to be of the highest quality just because it was they who wrote it. My own case with Elgar is I dislike a lot of his music, especially those Pomp and Circumstance Marches, the afore mentioned oratorios/cantatas, the Cello Concerto (one of the most overrated cello concerti in the mainstream repertoire, IMHO), and several of the miniatures. Debussy is my favorite composer (I have a framed portrait of the composer hanging in my room), but I'm not completely enthralled with everything he composed. I won't launch into specific works, but my point is not every work is worth hearing again and it's completely fine to accept that your favorite composer has some duds in their oeuvre.

[kyjo]

the Cello Concerto (one of the most overrated cello concerti in the mainstream repertoire, IMHO)

I'm with you on this one, John. I'll never quite understand why Elgar's Cello Concerto is done to death while those by Walton, Finzi, Moeran, and countless others are basically no-man's land to most professional cellists. I'm even more ambivalent towards his Violin Concerto, but at least it isn't so overplayed. But, aside from these two concerti, I'm firmly in the pro-Elgar camp. Though, admittedly, I've never heard any of the oratorios (even Gerontius), which divide opinion so sharply.

[Ghost of Baron Scarpia]

One of the problems I've encountered with listeners, especially ones attached to a specific composer, which, obviously will be Elgar in your case, is that they listen as if blinders were covering their ears. I call this the 'fan syndrome' where one's own judgement or taste is somehow put on hold or reserve because one is simply awestruck by a composer with whom they believe every not the composer wrote to be of the highest quality just because it was they who wrote it. My own case with Elgar is I dislike a lot of his music, especially those Pomp and Circumstance Marches, the afore mentioned oratorios/cantatas, the Cello Concerto (one of the most overrated cello concerti in the mainstream repertoire, IMHO), and several of the miniatures. Debussy is my favorite composer (I have a framed portrait of the composer hanging in my room), but I'm not completely enthralled with everything he composed. I won't launch into specific works, but my point is not every work is worth hearing again and it's completely fine to accept that your favorite composer has some duds in their oeuvre.

Not clear to me why someone liking everything their favorite composer wrote is your problem.

I've never heard something by Brahms I didn't enjoy at some level, although I've not heard his complete published works.

[Mirror Image]

Not clear to me why someone liking everything their favorite composer wrote is your problem.

I've never heard something by Brahms I didn't enjoy at some level, although I've not heard his complete published works.

Oh, it's not my problem, but what is a problem is how sometimes our infatuation with a composer's music can cloud what we truly hear. This is mainly an observation and is not meant to be taken offense to.

[71 dB]

Enjoying music is such a problem!  I wish instead of enjoying everything by Elgar I would dislike most of it so I would have less value for my Elgar collection... Jesus... 

There is a reason why Elgar is my favorite composer: I love pretty much everything he wrote.

[Mirror Image]

Enjoying music is such a problem!  I wish instead of enjoying everything by Elgar I would dislike most of it so I would have less value for my Elgar collection... Jesus... 

There is a reason why Elgar is my favorite composer: I love pretty much everything he wrote.

Way to miss my point! Thumbs up to you!

[Irons]

I'm with you on this one, John. I'll never quite understand why Elgar's Cello Concerto is done to death while those by Walton, Finzi, Moeran, and countless others are basically no-man's land to most professional cellists. I'm even more ambivalent towards his Violin Concerto, but at least it isn't so overplayed. But, aside from these two concerti, I'm firmly in the pro-Elgar camp. Though, admittedly, I've never heard any of the oratorios (even Gerontius), which divide opinion so sharply.

For one reason in my view. The recording of Elgar's Cello Concerto played by Jacqueline du Pré is iconic. A young attractive girl along with an old gent made a legendary classical recording. Her tragic illness and early death only added to the status and fame of this event. It is true she also recorded the Delius concerto, but it is always the Elgar that Jackie will be known and deservedly so. Too romantic for some listeners, but undoubtable one of the most famous if not the greatest ever classical recordings which has never left the catalogue.

[PerfectWagnerite]

For one reason in my view. The recording of Elgar's Cello Concerto played by Jacqueline du Pré is iconic. A young attractive girl along with an old gent made a legendary classical recording. Her tragic illness and early death only added to the status and fame of this event. It is true she also recorded the Delius concerto, but it is always the Elgar that Jackie will be known and deservedly so. Too romantic for some listeners, but undoubtable one of the most famous if not the greatest ever classical recordings which has never left the catalogue.

Who is the "old gent" you are referring to? I don't like Elgar's music but find the Cello Concerto a very fine piece. Of course Du Pre is justly famous for her advocacy of the piece. THere is a youtube video where you can see the kind of feral intensity she brings to the piece. Not the most elegant tone but a nice big sound.

[Mirror Image]

I'm with you on this one, John. I'll never quite understand why Elgar's Cello Concerto is done to death while those by Walton, Finzi, Moeran, and countless others are basically no-man's land to most professional cellists. I'm even more ambivalent towards his Violin Concerto, but at least it isn't so overplayed. But, aside from these two concerti, I'm firmly in the pro-Elgar camp. Though, admittedly, I've never heard any of the oratorios (even Gerontius), which divide opinion so sharply.

You're not missing anything by not listening to the oratorios. (Hope 71dB doesn't read this since Elgar can do no wrong in his opinion.) Walton's Cello Concerto deserves more attention than the Elgar. If we're keeping with a British theme, then I agree with you about the Finzi as well. I'm less familiar with the Moeran, but I do like this composer's music a lot. I wouldn't say I'm anti-Elgarian as there are works of his I like very much, but I wouldn't call myself an Elgarian by any stretch of the word. Vaughan Williams and Walton are my favorite Brits.

[kyjo]

For one reason in my view. The recording of Elgar's Cello Concerto played by Jacqueline du Pré is iconic. A young attractive girl along with an old gent made a legendary classical recording. Her tragic illness and early death only added to the status and fame of this event. It is true she also recorded the Delius concerto, but it is always the Elgar that Jackie will be known and deservedly so. Too romantic for some listeners, but undoubtable one of the most famous if not the greatest ever classical recordings which has never left the catalogue.

Very good point.

[Roasted Swan]

Very good point.

not really...... the Du Pre recording was made in the mid 60's.... the Elgar Cello concerto's status was firmly established in the nearly 50 years prior to that.

Walton is one of my most favourite composers... of the 3 string concerti the cello concerto is often cited (I think rightly) as the weakest.  I like it but the Elgar is without a shadow of doubt the finer work.  The Finzi runs neither close.  The disdain mentioned here is as much bound up with its popularity as its quality.

[71 dB]

You're not missing anything by not listening to the oratorios. (Hope 71dB doesn't read this since Elgar can do no wrong in his opinion.) Walton's Cello Concerto deserves more attention than the Elgar. If we're keeping with a British theme, then I agree with you about the Finzi as well. I'm less familiar with the Moeran, but I do like this composer's music a lot. I wouldn't say I'm anti-Elgarian as there are works of his I like very much, but I wouldn't call myself an Elgarian by any stretch of the word. Vaughan Williams and Walton are my favorite Brits.

You are really doing a great service to Elgar. Why are you even here?

[Mirror Image]

You are really doing a great service to Elgar. Why are you even here?

For this question, now my purpose here is to annoy the hell out of you.

[Mirror Image]

not really...... the Du Pre recording was made in the mid 60's.... the Elgar Cello concerto's status was firmly established in the nearly 50 years prior to that.

Walton is one of my most favourite composers... of the 3 string concerti the cello concerto is often cited (I think rightly) as the weakest.  I like it but the Elgar is without a shadow of doubt the finer work.  The Finzi runs neither close.  The disdain mentioned here is as much bound up with its popularity as its quality.

Popularity has no bearing on whether I enjoy a work or not. I don't like the piece, because it doesn't move me. It's that simple.

[Irons]

not really...... the Du Pre recording was made in the mid 60's.... the Elgar Cello concerto's status was firmly established in the nearly 50 years prior to that.

Walton is one of my most favourite composers... of the 3 string concerti the cello concerto is often cited (I think rightly) as the weakest.  I like it but the Elgar is without a shadow of doubt the finer work.  The Finzi runs neither close.  The disdain mentioned here is as much bound up with its popularity as its quality.

We can agree to disagree with the first sentence (Du Pré did a great job of selling this concerto). But you are right with the last. The Elgar CC is too popular for its own good and not only here.

[71 dB]

Those who love Elgar's music and are rash enough to try to express their love by the printed word write often of its endless fascination. He is one of the of a handful of composers whose music can be likened to a crystal on which the sunlight plays so that its shape, its colours, its intensity, seem constantly to vary. The persistent listener to Elgar will understand this analogy: the notes of the music are fixed, but the listener's reception of them may differ in detail from year to year, even day to day. The music is so alive---it lives, as a critic wrote years ago, in a perpentual change---that it demands that our response should never be stereotyped and fixed but shouldbe as fluid and flexible as the music itself. It is never wise to take up a rigid standpoint on any of thse works: Elgar has a way of still taking us by surprise. One almost hears his voice saying: "You've never noticed that before, have you? But I put it there on purpose for someone to discover". The two works concerning which it is particularly hazardous to take up prepared positions are The Apostles and The Kingdom.

Michael Kennedy, 1974
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When I explored Elgar's works 20+ years ago and heard his Cello Concerto I found it a bit underwhelming ("not mindblowing" for a major Elgar work), but it was the Maria Kliegel Naxos disc. Only several years later did I buy and hear the Jacqueline du Pre and understood better the fame of the Work, but I still consider the Violin Concerto better.

[aukhawk]

So do I like the Violin Concerto the better, but I think they are both very fine works that any virtuoso of the instrument would aspire to.

That Kennedy quote is sheer fanboyism by the way - the same could be said of any well-regarded composer of large-scale music operating after about 1830.  The only thing is it implies opportunities for repeated listening (ie via recordings) which is something Elgar would have been aware of and could somehow anticipate in his writing - but that latter seems a bit far-fetched to me.