Elgar's Hillside

[DaveF]

(That could be a nice location for a GMG UK meet...anyone ?  )

I'd like that, certainly, although I'm about 50 miles away, and only a very qualified Elgarian (I think non-English Brits struggle with the "Spirit of England" thing, especially when "England" was used as a synonym for Britain or the UK - and still is in some contexts (UK international relations being generally known as "Anglo-American, "Anglo-French" etc.))  Anyway, parenthetical rant over; a GMG trip to Broadheath, then up to Malvern to the graves, Craeg Lea, up onto the hills, would be most agreeable.

[relm1]

I am listening now to the Andrew Davis/BBC Symphony recording Elgar's No. 3.  It's extremely convincing.  Thanks for the suggestions, this was definitely worth hearing.  There are some moments that sounded a bit more like Tchaikovsky (No. 5) than Elgar but for all I know, these were actually Elgar's moments.  I would like to better understand the creation of this adaption which I am sure is well documented.  What percent is Payne and what percent is Elgar?  Though it is still convincing, it helps me understand how to evaluate it.  It's a really wonderful symphony and definitely worth being considered as part of Elgar's oeuvre.

The Scherzo was overlong.  A criticism I have of his other symphonies.  Structure isn't Elgar's strength (more on that later).  Some composers deal with structural issues through over reliance on texture.  I am certainly guilty of this.   

I feel the third movement is also guilty of too much extension.  Basically, a musical sequence.  A musical sequence is a thematic statement that is then restated with a pitch variation.  It is a way to extend musical development.  As if a composer wants to elaborate on a theme and needs more time, they'll play that theme again in a sequence that is modulated in different keys.  It gets old fast.  In contrast, there is a through line like Rachmaninoff's Vocalise which doesn't follow normal structure.   Don't get me wrong, symphonies don't need to follow strict structure but their needs to be a cohesive structure and I feel that is the weak point of this symphony.  You can sound like Elgar but need to have structure too.  Structure is what separate "stuff that sounds like Elgar" from "Elgar composed this".  That is why Mahler 10 is truly a composition from Mahler regardless of who orchestrated it.  Structure is very, very hard to get right. The bigger the work, the harder it is.  I also believe not all music needs to adhere to structure...for example a rhapsody is regardless of form.  It is an indulgence of the theme but that doesn't quite apply here because there isn't a grand thematic "moment". 

The finale is

I tend to think of Elgar in short form.   Enigma for example are a set of short movements fine as they are.  Or Pomp and Circumstances, even giant works like Gerontius are full of multiple set pieces.  The two famous concerti (violin and cello) are very good and late examples of form but rare.  His two extant symphonies aren't amazing examples of structure and could be criticized as overlong and bloated.  But I am a fan of Elgar.  I've performed much of his music and it has a potent impact...Enigma is challenging and rewarding to perform in concert which I've performed multiple times.  He is surprising challenging yet thrilling to perform.

I know nothing of Anthony Payne's music so can't comment on how much of his "voice" is in this work. 

[Irons]

No, don't go, please.

+1

Do as Sarge wear a hard hat.

[Roasted Swan]

I said it was a personal loss. I didn't say that the handing over to the National Trust didn't save the Birthplace. It did. Neither did I say I thought it would be 'better' for the Birthplace to close instead. I know very well that many people like the new look, and I think that's a fine thing for them. I was explaining why it is a loss to me, personally, and I have as much right to express my sadness about the loss as others have to express delight in the new regime. I am not morally obliged to be a member of the Elgar Society, and indeed I have supported the Birthplace in many quiet, unnoticed ways for many, many years.

But some things do not last forever, and it transpired that my membership turns out to be one of them. Yet you, in complete ignorance of the background and my personal circumstances, insultingly call my reasons 'self-serving'? I really do not accept you as an appropriate moral authority in this matter, and I am astonished that you seem to think you are.

It is extraordinary that within a matter of days of returning to GMG, I find myself involved in this sort of unpleasantness almost immediately. Enough is enough. I am gone.

No personal insult was intended and if such was taken I apologise.  However any forum has to be open to debate and while I have no idea of the individual circumstances of anyone on this forum I can only respond to what I read and the interpretation I take from that.  Take umbrage if you will, but no forum has a lasting value if all we do is agree with everything anyone ever expresses.

[71 dB]

I would like to better understand the creation of this adaption which I am sure is well documented. 

There is this commentary CD which I have, but haven't listened to for two decades so please don't ask details.

[asin]B00002687H[/asin]

[vandermolen]

I am listening now to the Andrew Davis/BBC Symphony recording Elgar's No. 3.  It's extremely convincing.  Thanks for the suggestions, this was definitely worth hearing.  There are some moments that sounded a bit more like Tchaikovsky (No. 5) than Elgar but for all I know, these were actually Elgar's moments.  I would like to better understand the creation of this adaption which I am sure is well documented.  What percent is Payne and what percent is Elgar?  Though it is still convincing, it helps me understand how to evaluate it.  It's a really wonderful symphony and definitely worth being considered as part of Elgar's oeuvre.

The Scherzo was overlong.  A criticism I have of his other symphonies.  Structure isn't Elgar's strength (more on that later).  Some composers deal with structural issues through over reliance on texture.  I am certainly guilty of this.   

I feel the third movement is also guilty of too much extension.  Basically, a musical sequence.  A musical sequence is a thematic statement that is then restated with a pitch variation.  It is a way to extend musical development.  As if a composer wants to elaborate on a theme and needs more time, they'll play that theme again in a sequence that is modulated in different keys.  It gets old fast.  In contrast, there is a through line like Rachmaninoff's Vocalise which doesn't follow normal structure.   Don't get me wrong, symphonies don't need to follow strict structure but their needs to be a cohesive structure and I feel that is the weak point of this symphony.  You can sound like Elgar but need to have structure too.  Structure is what separate "stuff that sounds like Elgar" from "Elgar composed this".  That is why Mahler 10 is truly a composition from Mahler regardless of who orchestrated it.  Structure is very, very hard to get right. The bigger the work, the harder it is.  I also believe not all music needs to adhere to structure...for example a rhapsody is regardless of form.  It is an indulgence of the theme but that doesn't quite apply here because there isn't a grand thematic "moment". 

The finale is

I tend to think of Elgar in short form.   Enigma for example are a set of short movements fine as they are.  Or Pomp and Circumstances, even giant works like Gerontius are full of multiple set pieces.  The two famous concerti (violin and cello) are very good and late examples of form but rare.  His two extant symphonies aren't amazing examples of structure and could be criticized as overlong and bloated.  But I am a fan of Elgar.  I've performed much of his music and it has a potent impact...Enigma is challenging and rewarding to perform in concert which I've performed multiple times.  He is surprising challenging yet thrilling to perform.

I know nothing of Anthony Payne's music so can't comment on how much of his "voice" is in this work.

I'm so glad that you enjoyed it and thought you would. My suggestion is to get the companion CD shown by 71 dB above. As a composer yourself I think that you'd find it most instructive. There's a book 'Elgar as I Knew Him' by W.H.Reed which features the surviving sketches of the Third Symphony I think.

[vandermolen]

+1

Do as Sarge wear a hard hat.

Yes, please don't go.

Life's too short for that.

[Mirror Image]

I said it was a personal loss. I didn't say that the handing over to the National Trust didn't save the Birthplace. It did. Neither did I say I thought it would be 'better' for the Birthplace to close instead. I know very well that many people like the new look, and I think that's a fine thing for them. I was explaining why it is a loss to me, personally, and I have as much right to express my sadness about the loss as others have to express delight in the new regime. I am not morally obliged to be a member of the Elgar Society, and indeed I have supported the Birthplace in many quiet, unnoticed ways for many, many years.

But some things do not last forever, and it transpired that my membership turns out to be one of them. Yet you, in complete ignorance of the background and my personal circumstances, insultingly call my reasons 'self-serving'? I really do not accept you as an appropriate moral authority in this matter, and I am astonished that you seem to think you are.

It is extraordinary that within a matter of days of returning to GMG, I find myself involved in this sort of unpleasantness almost immediately. Enough is enough. I am gone.

Please don't go, Elgarian Redux. I really enjoy your posts about Elgar (and other composers). If you do decide to leave, then please reconsider immediately. All things will pass and the bad taste you have your mouth will subside. You have always been so nice to me even when I didn't deserve it, I'd hate to see you go over something like this.

[71 dB]

Please don't go, Elgarian Redux. I really enjoy your posts about Elgar (and other composers). If you do decide to leave, then please reconsider immediately. All things will pass and the bad taste you have your mouth will subside. You have always been so nice to me even when I didn't deserve it, I'd hate to see you go over something like this.

It's mentally hard to be on this forum, surprisingly hard. It's amazing how toxic this place can be. This is kind of a magnet for besserwissers* and I don't count myself out. Out of all discussion boards I have posted on I think this one is where I have had my worst meltdowns so I can understand if Elgarian Redux wants to go... 

* Do you remember the king of besserwissers, M Forever? 

[vandermolen]

It's mentally hard to be on this forum, surprisingly hard. It's amazing how toxic this place can be. This is kind of a magnet for besserwissers* and I don't count myself out. Out of all discussion boards I have posted on I think this one is where I have had my worst meltdowns so I can understand if Elgarian Redux wants to go... 

* Do you remember the king of besserwissers, M Forever? 

Fair enough. I respect your view. I think that it has something to do with the nature of posted communications where the tone of the message can come across as much harsher than actually intended. Tone is very important and impossible to gauge in written communications (you should see some of the text messages between my wife and myself!  )

[Mirror Image]

It's mentally hard to be on this forum, surprisingly hard. It's amazing how toxic this place can be. This is kind of a magnet for besserwissers* and I don't count myself out. Out of all discussion boards I have posted on I think this one is where I have had my worst meltdowns so I can understand if Elgarian Redux wants to go... 

* Do you remember the king of besserwissers, M Forever? 

But a lot of your problem stems from the fact that you freely admitted that the political threads have caused your meltdown and, yet, you continue to frequent those threads over and over again as if you didn't learn your lesson the first-time around. I never had a meltdown on this forum or any forum for that matter. I have been rather nasty to several members but I apologized for my boorish behavior almost as quickly as I posted the negative posts. I stick to threads that I'm interested in which would be the music-related ones and leave the political threads to those who wish to dish it out to each other while knowing nothing is truly gained from these kinds of interactions to begin with.

[relm1]

This is a fantastic work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ed4DWO_RzNs

[Irons]

This is a fantastic work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ed4DWO_RzNs

Indeed it is. The essence of EE in under 8 minutes.

[71 dB]

Indeed it is. The essence of EE in under 8 minutes.

Actually about 12 minutes, because the complete music for Grania & Diarmid, Op. 42 includes the song 'There Are Seven That Pull the Thread'

https://www.youtube.com/v/OEoGZjhYggM

[relm1]

Actually about 12 minutes, because the complete music for Grania & Diarmid, Op. 42 includes the song 'There Are Seven That Pull the Thread'

https://www.youtube.com/v/OEoGZjhYggM

That is so beautiful.  I especially love the line "Holiest, holiest seven" and how the melody is so gently echoed on clarinet and bassoon.  Beautiful music. 

[Papy Oli]

What would be some good alternatives to the Naxos symphonies I currently have for Elgar please (Hurst 1, Downes 2) ?

As I am currently reading one of his books and also amassed a few of his recordings recently, I was particularly looking at Boult. Best to go for his EMI or the Lyrita ?

Any other conductors to consider please ? Thank you for your suggestions.

[Mirror Image]

What would be some good alternatives to the Naxos symphonies I currently have for Elgar please (Hurst 1, Downes 2) ?

As I am currently reading one of his books and also amassed a few of his recordings recently, I was particularly looking at Boult. Best to go for his EMI or the Lyrita ?

Any other conductors to consider please ? Thank you for your suggestions.

Barbirolli, Elder, or Andrew Davis --- you really can't go wrong with any of these conductors in Elgar.

[Roasted Swan]

Barbirolli, Elder, or Andrew Davis --- you really can't go wrong with any of these conductors in Elgar.

I still return to Handley/LPO.  I do think you need to sit the violins antiphonally in Elgar and the effect registers extremely well here.  The recordings still sound very fine - I love the added organ at the end of No.2 (Slatkin/LPO adds this too).  Not so keen on the Lyrita/Boult.  But there are many fine versions to be sure.

[Mirror Image]

I still return to Handley/LPO.  I do think you need to sit the violins antiphonally in Elgar and the effect registers extremely well here.  The recordings still sound very fine - I love the added organ at the end of No.2 (Slatkin/LPO adds this too).  Not so keen on the Lyrita/Boult.  But there are many fine versions to be sure.

Hmmm...I might need to revisit Handley's Elgar. But, honestly, he's not one of my favorite Brit composers. That honor would go to Britten, Walton, and Vaughan Williams.

[Irons]

I still return to Handley/LPO.  I do think you need to sit the violins antiphonally in Elgar and the effect registers extremely well here.  The recordings still sound very fine - I love the added organ at the end of No.2 (Slatkin/LPO adds this too).  Not so keen on the Lyrita/Boult.  But there are many fine versions to be sure.

The violin arrangement resulted in a row between Boult and Itter for the Lyrita recordings I believe.

Too easy to forget Handley for Elgar.