Elgar's Hillside

[vers la flamme]

^Thanks! I think I'll seek out the Bean or Ennes.

After having spent a bit of time with The Dream of Gerontius and finding it highly impressive, I'm curious what, if any of, Elgar's other choral music is worth hearing. What say you all?

My unrelated question to you all is this: What is your favorite performance of the Enigma Variations? It's such an excellent piece.

[Roasted Swan]

^Thanks! I think I'll seek out the Bean or Ennes.

After having spent a bit of time with The Dream of Gerontius and finding it highly impressive, I'm curious what, if any of, Elgar's other choral music is worth hearing. What say you all?

My unrelated question to you all is this: What is your favorite performance of the Enigma Variations? It's such an excellent piece.

Elgar himself rated "The Apostles" and "The Kingdom" above Gerontius as have other commentators.  My favourite of all Elgar's choral works is "Spirit of England" which is in effect his War Requiem.  The Gibson recording in Paisley Abbey is wonderful and so is Hickox's version on Warner/EMI;



Impossible to put one Enigma above all others - there are too many fine versions - but a recurring favourite and one I listen to possibly more often than others is Menuhin/RPO on Tring;



This version is currently part of a FREE download from ClassicSelect for the next week or two I guess;

https://www.classicselectworld.com/collections/free-downloads/products/big-english-music-box

I mentioned this on the "British Composers thread" as not to be missed for all the music included not just Enigma.......

[vers la flamme]

Elgar himself rated "The Apostles" and "The Kingdom" above Gerontius as have other commentators.  My favourite of all Elgar's choral works is "Spirit of England" which is in effect his War Requiem.  The Gibson recording in Paisley Abbey is wonderful and so is Hickox's version on Warner/EMI;



Impossible to put one Enigma above all others - there are too many fine versions - but a recurring favourite and one I listen to possibly more often than others is Menuhin/RPO on Tring;



This version is currently part of a FREE download from ClassicSelect for the next week or two I guess;

https://www.classicselectworld.com/collections/free-downloads/products/big-english-music-box

I mentioned this on the "British Composers thread" as not to be missed for all the music included not just Enigma.......

Wow. That "box" looks awesome. I may have to jump on that while it's still free. Thanks for the recs! I had heard about The Spirit of England, but was prejudicially avoiding it on the surely false assumption that it would contain nothing but pompous British Empire music. I shall have to check it out!

[Roasted Swan]

Wow. That "box" looks awesome. I may have to jump on that while it's still free. Thanks for the recs! I had heard about The Spirit of England, but was prejudicially avoiding it on the surely false assumption that it would contain nothing but pompous British Empire music. I shall have to check it out!

Indeed - please do try and avoid falling into overly simplistic traps/generalisations of Elgar (other British composers) writing "pompous British Empire music".  Remember that Elgar himself was not at all comfortable with the words of "Land of Hope and Glory".  Indeed all 5 Pomp and Circumstance Marches were written as QUICK military marches and they are quite unusual as the less famous ones; Nos. 2,3 & 5 have a kind of nervy energy that is a mile away from the perception of arrogant Empire.  Also, it is very easy at the distance of more than a century to dismiss all associations with the British Empire as at least flawed or at worst embodying unthinking imperialist excess.  Remember Elgar - great artist though he was - was in effect a middle class man who reflected the age in which he lived - he did not define it.  I think his ceremonial music does work because it is sincerely written and Elgar is always at his best when writing from the heart.  So yes there ARE some lines in the libretto to Spirit of England that jar with modern sensibilities but the emotion and motivation behind those lines, the way in which Elgar expresses those sentiments to me is enduringly powerful.  His setting in this work of "at the going down of the sun..." moves me every time I hear it.

Every country has composers who have written works in earlier eras that are the equivalent of "Land of Hope and Glory" - for some reason it is British composers who get a bad rap for it where as others don't to my mind.  On a slight tagent - I think any compsers who are commissioned to write coronation music for Charles III is going to have a really tricky time of it - balancing the historic expectation of the old with the modern awareness of that same history.  Whatever else they did do Elgar/Parry/Bliss/Vaughan Williams/Bax/Walton could all write a stirring and memorable tune......

[vers la flamme]

Indeed - please do try and avoid falling into overly simplistic traps/generalisations of Elgar (other British composers) writing "pompous British Empire music".  Remember that Elgar himself was not at all comfortable with the words of "Land of Hope and Glory".  Indeed all 5 Pomp and Circumstance Marches were written as QUICK military marches and they are quite unusual as the less famous ones; Nos. 2,3 & 5 have a kind of nervy energy that is a mile away from the perception of arrogant Empire.  Also, it is very easy at the distance of more than a century to dismiss all associations with the British Empire as at least flawed or at worst embodying unthinking imperialist excess.  Remember Elgar - great artist though he was - was in effect a middle class man who reflected the age in which he lived - he did not define it.  I think his ceremonial music does work because it is sincerely written and Elgar is always at his best when writing from the heart.  So yes there ARE some lines in the libretto to Spirit of England that jar with modern sensibilities but the emotion and motivation behind those lines, the way in which Elgar expresses those sentiments to me is enduringly powerful.  His setting in this work of "at the going down of the sun..." moves me every time I hear it.

Every country has composers who have written works in earlier eras that are the equivalent of "Land of Hope and Glory" - for some reason it is British composers who get a bad rap for it where as others don't to my mind.  On a slight tagent - I think any compsers who are commissioned to write coronation music for Charles III is going to have a really tricky time of it - balancing the historic expectation of the old with the modern awareness of that same history.  Whatever else they did do Elgar/Parry/Bliss/Vaughan Williams/Bax/Walton could all write a stirring and memorable tune......

Hope I didn't offend with that line; I only wished to demonstrate the flaws of my earlier thinking. The more I listen to Elgar the more I admire, enjoy, and identify with his music. He was certainly a very original composer of immense skill, if not genius, and I've enjoyed every moment I've spent with his music over the past week or so since I began to revisit it in depth. As for my previous prejudice against Elgar, I have only the American education system and its overuse of the trio of that one famous P&C March for graduation ceremonies to blame. As a budding Elgar fan I can wholeheartedly disown my previous misconceptions (Sometimes it's easier to make rash generalizations than to actually explore the music for oneself.)

Another open ended question for the members of the board: What recordings of the Dream of Gerontius do you all like? The Barbirolli/Hallé sounds excellent—really captures the dreamlike atmosphere. I also have Hickox/LSO (Chandos) lying around somewhere, but don't think I've heard it.

[Roasted Swan]

Hope I didn't offend with that line; I only wished to demonstrate the flaws of my earlier thinking. The more I listen to Elgar the more I admire, enjoy, and identify with his music. He was certainly a very original composer of immense skill, if not genius, and I've enjoyed every moment I've spent with his music over the past week or so since I began to revisit it in depth. As for my previous prejudice against Elgar, I have only the American education system and its overuse of the trio of that one famous P&C March for graduation ceremonies to blame. As a budding Elgar fan I can wholeheartedly disown my previous misconceptions (Sometimes it's easier to make rash generalizations than to actually explore the music for oneself.)

Another open ended question for the members of the board: What recordings of the Dream of Gerontius do you all like? The Barbirolli/Hallé sounds excellent—really captures the dreamlike atmosphere. I also have Hickox/LSO (Chandos) lying around somewhere, but don't think I've heard it.

Goodness me no offence taken at all - just counciing against adopting easy generalisations.  I didn't know about the use of the trio of P&C 1 for USA University graduations!  The Barbirolli box should have the 5 P&C marches - do listen to them as a set, they are very fine and not at all what you might expect from the trio section of No.1 alone!  Indeed all of Elgar's "Institutional works" - the Empire march, the Imperial March, Caractacus etc have an emotional ambivalence that lifts them far above the standard gung-ho/square jawed/heroic fayre.

As far as Gerotius is concerned - the Barbirolli is justly famous even allowing for Kim Borg's mangled English.  I do like Boult - Gedda has that kind of ringing operatic sound that Elgar envisaged and Robert Lloyd is great in the 2 bass parts.  Hickox is fine too.  A bit of a rarity/outlier that I like is Sakari Oramo with the CBSO.  Also Svetlanov's performance using Russian orchestra but English choir and soloists is very individual and compelling - even allowing for the fact it was recorded in winter in the pneumonia ward of Moscow Central Hospital (ie there is a LOT of audience coughing!)

[71 dB]

Wow! So much activity suddenly here. I don't participate on the recommendations because I suck at them. For the Violin Concerto alone there are so many options... 

I happened to listen to a Harmonia Mundi CD today with works like Sospiri, Elegy, Nursery Suite etc. With ducks on the cover art. Lovely disc!  0:)

[Roasted Swan]

Wow! So much activity suddenly here. I don't participate on the recommendations because I suck at them. For the Violin Concerto alone there are so many options... 

I happened to listen to a Harmonia Mundi CD today with works like Sospiri, Elegy, Nursery Suite etc. With ducks on the cover art. Lovely disc!  0:)

But your opinion is just as valid as anyone else's especially given you are an Elgar enthusiast!  I don't know the Harmonia Mundi disc you mention but I listened to the Nursery Suite in this version last week....



another lovely Elgar disc from Menuhin.  I do think Anthony Payne "stealing" the "Wagon Passes" idea for the end of his version of the 3rd symphony was a touch of genius.....

[vandermolen]

But your opinion is just as valid as anyone else's especially given you are an Elgar enthusiast!  I don't know the Harmonia Mundi disc you mention but I listened to the Nursery Suite in this version last week....



another lovely Elgar disc from Menuhin.  I do think Anthony Payne "stealing" the "Wagon Passes" idea for the end of his version of the 3rd symphony was a touch of genius.....

+1

[Karl Henning]

I've listened to Sospiri a few times in total and so far I've yet to hear the organ in any of the recordings? Is it an ad lib part?

The organ is clear to hear on the Andrew Davis/BBC Symphony recording I have. One thing to keep in mind is, it's not a grand pipe organ part, but a harmonium-ish chamber organ part.

Elgar himself rated "The Apostles" and "The Kingdom" above Gerontius as have other commentators.  My favourite of all Elgar's choral works is "Spirit of England" which is in effect his War Requiem.  The Gibson recording in Paisley Abbey is wonderful and so is Hickox's version on Warner/EMI;

FWIW, I couldn't bear The Apostles. Not sure I've ever tried The Kingdom. Gerontius and The Spirit of England seem pretty much to scratch any Elgar choral itch I feel.

[71 dB]

FWIW, I couldn't bear The Apostles. Not sure I've ever tried The Kingdom. Gerontius and The Spirit of England seem pretty much to scratch any Elgar choral itch I feel.

I think The Apostles and The Kingdom are among the best works by Elgar and certainly above The Dream of Gerontius, but it seems one has to be strongly into Elgar to get the greatness of those works...

[vers la flamme]

I think The Apostles and The Kingdom are among the best works by Elgar and certainly above The Dream of Gerontius, but it seems one has to be strongly into Elgar to get the greatness of those works...

Do you have an all-time favorite work of his?

[Karl Henning]

I think The Apostles and The Kingdom are among the best works by Elgar and certainly above The Dream of Gerontius, but it seems one has to be strongly into Elgar to get the greatness of those works...

Poju, I may have been out off by idiosyncrasies specific to a given recording. But clearly there are those who regard The Apostles highly. Is there a good recording you would recommend?


Separately, I like Gerontius a great deal, so certainly above The Dream of Gerontius may not have been your best pitch to me 

[71 dB]

Do you have an all-time favorite work of his?

Not a clear one. Because I like Elgar's art so much, even his "lesser" music provides endless fascination for me, but if I have to mention one it would be the 2nd Symphony.

Poju, I may have been out off by idiosyncrasies specific to a given recording. But clearly there are those who regard The Apostles highly. Is there a good recording you would recommend?

My favorite is Boult, but some people like Dave Hurwitz say Hickox which I haven't even heard! 

Separately, I like Gerontius a great deal, so certainly above The Dream of Gerontius may not have been your best pitch to me 

I have been ill today and my head isn't working properly. I like The Apostles and The Kingdom even more than the Dream of Gerontius. That is what I was trying to say.

[Karl Henning]

My favorite is Boult, but some people like Dave Hurwitz say Hickox which I haven't even heard! 


I have been ill today and my head isn't working properly. I like The Apostles and The Kingdom even more than the Dream of Gerontius. That is what I was trying to say.

No worries, buddy.

[vers la flamme]

Not a clear one. Because I like Elgar's art so much, even his "lesser" music provides endless fascination for me, but if I have to mention one it would be the 2nd Symphony.

My favorite is Boult, but some people like Dave Hurwitz say Hickox which I haven't even heard! 


I have been ill today and my head isn't working properly. I like The Apostles and The Kingdom even more than the Dream of Gerontius. That is what I was trying to say.

Thanks! I like Elgar more and more with each listen, so happy to hear comments from longtime fans such as yourself. I have not heard Elgar's 2nd. Care to tell me your favorite recording of it? I have Barbirolli/Hallé from the box set that I've been listening to this past week.

I did see the Hurwitz video where he talks about his love for the Hickox Apostles, which pretty much put that recording on my radar. I think I'll check it out at some point, but the Dream of Gerontius is enough Elgar choral for me, for now. I have Barbirolli/Hallé plus the Hickox/London from a later era. It's a very fine work, and I like it a lot more than I expected to. I also looked up the Britten recording of Gerontius for Decca and liked what I heard.

[Karl Henning]

Great to see the love for Gerontius!

[vandermolen]

Not a clear one. Because I like Elgar's art so much, even his "lesser" music provides endless fascination for me, but if I have to mention one it would be the 2nd Symphony.

My favorite is Boult, but some people like Dave Hurwitz say Hickox which I haven't even heard! 


I have been ill today and my head isn't working properly. I like The Apostles and The Kingdom even more than the Dream of Gerontius. That is what I was trying to say.

Hope you feel better.

[Roasted Swan]

Thanks! I like Elgar more and more with each listen, so happy to hear comments from longtime fans such as yourself. I have not heard Elgar's 2nd. Care to tell me your favorite recording of it? I have Barbirolli/Hallé from the box set that I've been listening to this past week.

I did see the Hurwitz video where he talks about his love for the Hickox Apostles, which pretty much put that recording on my radar. I think I'll check it out at some point, but the Dream of Gerontius is enough Elgar choral for me, for now. I have Barbirolli/Hallé plus the Hickox/London from a later era. It's a very fine work, and I like it a lot more than I expected to. I also looked up the Britten recording of Gerontius for Decca and liked what I heard.

The Britten/Gerontius is interesting in many and quite different ways.  The very fact he recorded it at all was something of a surprise.  Of course Britten did a fine Introduction & Allegro but in general his view on British music of that era was pretty scathing - certainly he did not record anything else commercially by Elgar except those 2 works.  His choice of soloists is also very interesting - Yvonne Minton had a big dramatic voice quite unlike the 'classic' British contralto sound and she sings beautifully.  Not sure anyone can match Janet baker's insights into the role but Minton is very good.  Likewise John Shirley -Quirk who was the go-to bass/baritone in all the best recoridngs of British music in the 1970's & 80's (this was recorded in 1971).  I am imprinted with his sound because of this so my judgement is far from objective!  Probably I prefer a more true bass in these sections (Robert Lloyd for Boult for me is the best) but Shirley-Quiry is VERY good.  Then there is Pears as Gerontius.  Your enjoyment of the whole recording will probably stand or fall by your response to his voice.  He was in his 60's by the time he did this recording and it is typical Pears.  Musically sensitive and responsive to the text but the actual sound is unmistakeable and not one I love in a tenor.  Another interesting choice was using the Choir of Kings College Chapel as the semi-chorus - a really good and effective idea and one rarely copied on disc or in concert (ie using a cathedral/church sounding group as a contrast) - probably too expensive!  The recording itself is good (made at Snape Maltings) in the best Decca tradition but not as amazing as many of their other efforts from the same time - lots of the other Britten conducts Britten recordings still sound sensational technically let alone muscially.  All in all a performance I enjoy and am glad to know.



Funny how an image of the original LP box brings back so many memories!

[71 dB]

I had heard about The Spirit of England, but was prejudicially avoiding it on the surely false assumption that it would contain nothing but pompous British Empire music. I shall have to check it out!

Elgar surely did deliver pompous music for the British Empire when asked, but most of his music is quite different in mood and style. For my Elgar's music is like a person that is a child, middle-aged and old at the same time. There is playfulness (childhood), seriousness (middle age) and sadness/melancholy/nostalgy (old age). The pompous style belongs to the middle age category. Elgar's lesser know pieces often are about the combination of childhood and old age feeling and are void of pompous empire sound that Elgar is known for generally. That might actually be one of the main reason why many people overlook Elgar. They don't go to the lesser known works to realise how nice music it is and how versatile Elgar was. This versatility makes Elgar's music very colourful and full of contrasts to me. I also think that people take the pompous sounds of Elgar in a wrong way. Elgar wasn't like that as a person. Elgar must have been very intelligent and intellectually curious person. He was clearly a humanist and pacifist, but also into science as a hobby even patenting his own soap.

The combination of playfulness and sadness/melancholy/nostalgy is one of the main attractions about Elgar's music for me. The pomposity adds to this to make things even more colourful and interesting, but generally Elgar's pompous marches are among the least interesting works of his to me. Luckily a rather small portion of his music is purely in this style and elsewhere this style serves as occational spice. Often one has to explore a composer well in order to get it all in the correct context and I think with Elgar this is particularly true. He wasn't someone who wrote 10 symphonies and 20 string quartets. He wrote all kind of stuff. He wrote a miniature about his dog Mina. He wrote music to raise money for the Dutch and Polish casulties of WWI. As a young man he wrote polkas for music therapy in mental asylum. When I explored Elgar 25 years ago for the first time, I felt almost every work I heard teached me something new about Elgar and allowed me to see a new side of his personality.