Elgar's Hillside

[karlhenning]

Well, I am mistaken then, for you have heard the piece. All is well : )

[TheGSMoeller]

Curious about some opinions on Slatkin/LPO recording of Symphony No.1.

I've found it surprisingly good. A very powerful finale, I love to hear the tuba and timpani really pushing through towards the ending.

[Sergeant Rock]

Curious about some opinions on Slatkin/LPO recording of Symphony No.1.

I've found it surprisingly good. A very powerful finale, I love to hear the tuba and timpani really pushing through towards the ending.

That's another version I don't own but would like too. From the reviews it sounds quite intriguing....and I always enjoy hearing non-British conductors in the music. Slatkin's VW is quite good.

Sarge

[TheGSMoeller]

That's another version I don't own but would like too. From the reviews it sounds quite intriguing....and I always enjoy hearing non-British conductors in the music. Slatkin's VW is quite good.

Sarge

Slatkin's impressive RVW cycle is why I purchased this Elgar, although a different ensemble. Haven't heard his Symphony no.2 yet.
Another non-British no.1 I like is Zinman/Baltimore.

[Elgarian]

As the Elgar symphonies are two of my favourite pieces ever written

I'm struggling to remember, but to the best of my knowledge I don't think I've ever encountered anyone, previously, who's said that. Dammit, I can't even say it myself. The 1st would be top top top of my personal list of favourite symphonies by anyone, anytime; but by contrast no.2 requires a certain mood that I can't always summon, and would mostly give way to other favourites. I think you deserve the official GMG Elgar Symphony Lover's  badge.

Welcome, by the way.

Just been sifting through my stuff to find which versions I have - not to try to decide which comes out on top, but just for the fun moral obligation of joining in the game serious research project:

Symphony no. 1
Elgar/LSO (1930)
Barbirolli/Philharmonia (1962)
Boult/BBC SO (1976 Prom)
Boult/LPO (1977)
Haitink/Philharmonia (1983)
A. Davis/BBC SO (1991)
Slatkin/LPO (1992)
C. Davis/LSO (2001)

Symphony no. 2
Elgar/LSO (1927)
Barbirolli/Philharmonia (1964)
Sargent/BBC SO (1964)
Boult/LPO (1976)
Haitink/Philharmonia (1984)
A. Davis/BBC SO (1992)
Slatkin/LPO (1994)
C. Davis/LSO (2001)

I'd forgotten I had the Haitink nos. 1 and 2 (found it lurking in an obscure corner of one of the CD stacks), and can't remember anything about it; and I've yet to listen to the Sargent no.2, but have no great expectations of it. Otherwise, I've listened to every one of these with pleasure, and without disappointment, on more than one occasion. I remember on a couple of occasions being overwhelmed by the live Boult 1976 Prom performance of the 1st simply because there seemed to be something special 'in the air', but I couldn't possibly analyse why. And the set I tend to reach for most often is Boult 76/77 (for what it's worth).

Equivocally yrs., etc. etc.

[madaboutmahler]

Here's what I have:

Symphony #1

Boult/LPO
Sinopoli/Philharmonia
Previn/RPO
Tate/LSO
Solti/LPO
C.Davis/LSO
Barbirolli/Philharmonia
Barenboim/LPO

Symphony #2

Boult/LPO
Haitink/Philharmonia
Sinopoli/Philharmonia
Tate/LSO
Solti/LPO
C.Davis/LSO
Elgar/LSO
Svetlanov/USSR State SO
Barbirolli/Hallé


Sarge

Yes, I believe I have all of those recordings, apart from the Tate and plus a few others. But hold on... Svetlanov made a recording of Elgar 2?!!! May I ask what that is like? I think Solti brings the most excitement and beauty out of the score, Elder close behind. The LSO Live Davis releases could be excellent but are let down by the dry sound quality in my opinion. The Boult is obviously a classic, the EMI sound is not the best and I am sure there are a few fluffs in the orchestra, but the Lyrita release is amazing! Barbirolli is a little two broad for my taste.... maybe Sinopoli could be a little more lively as well. So those are my initial opinions on a few. So my favourite is Solti, followed by Elder, then the classic Boult on Lyrita.
I also love Elgar's own historic recordings, Naxos Historical have done a decent remastering, although the hissing is still in the backround and certain details are close to impossible to find...

Curious about some opinions on Slatkin/LPO recording of Symphony No.1.

I've found it surprisingly good. A very powerful finale, I love to hear the tuba and timpani really pushing through towards the ending.

I really love Slatkin's performances of the Elgar symphonies, I think his performance of no.2 overpowers no.1 though. At the climax of the finale in no.2, there is so much power, and I love the definite presence of the organ!

I'm struggling to remember, but to the best of my knowledge I don't think I've ever encountered anyone, previously, who's said that. Dammit, I can't even say it myself. The 1st would be top top top of my personal list of favourite symphonies by anyone, anytime; but by contrast no.2 requires a certain mood that I can't always summon, and would mostly give way to other favourites. I think you deserve the official GMG Elgar Symphony Lover's  badge.

Welcome, by the way.

Yes, I am quite aware that no.2 is rather more difficult to relate to. It certainly is a more challenging piece to understand with it's journey from jollity and pride in the opening, to the serene and magical ending. haha I am glad that I deserve the GMG Elgar Symphony Lover's Badge! I just find the second symphony even more beautiful than the first, especially the largo and the ending of the finale, so magical! Maybe it's because I first heard the second symphony in a live concert when I was next to the organ blazing in the finale, quite something to remember. I still find the ending of the finale some of the most beautiful music I have ever heard!
Thank you for the welcome, I am very happy to have joined!

Best Wishes everyone!
Daniel

[Sergeant Rock]

But hold on... Svetlanov made a recording of Elgar 2?!!!

Yes, a live recording from Moscow, 1977. The program included Sea Pictures...in Russian. (I imagine Karl would like to hear this.) The "Slavic" voice works quite well in the more somber songs like "Sea Slumber" but it won't soon replace Janet Baker. It's been awhile since I last listened to the CD. I'll need to hear it again, refresh my memory, before commenting on the performance of the symphony. Here's the cover:




Sarge

[71 dB]

I just find the second symphony even more beautiful than the first, especially the largo and the ending of the finale, so magical! . I still find the ending of the finale some of the most beautiful music I have ever heard!
Thank you for the welcome, I am very happy to have joined!

Best Wishes everyone!
Daniel

Welcome Daniel! I think very similarly about Elgar's 2nd symphony. I find it about 5 % better that the first symphony and one of Elgar's finest works. If the 1st symphony starts stunning well, the finale of the 2nd is Elgar at his best. 

[Elgarian]

Some interesting different takes on the second symphony coming up here, with words like 'beautiful', 'jollity', 'pride', 'serene', and 'magical' in use.

Now 'beautiful' has a wide enough range of meaning for me to empathise with, but some of these others I don't find ('serenity', for instance, I hear very little of). The prevailing moods of the second symphony, for me, are best described by words like unease or restlessness. Even the slow movement I'd describe as tragic or funereal rather than beautiful - though it is of course beautiful - but in a heart-rending 'this is the irrecoverable end of something precious' way. Where the first symphony is essentially optimistic in outlook (hardly a contentious claim, for Elgar himself described it thus), I feel that his optimism has taken a serious hammering by the time we get to the 2nd.

For the final movement isn't essentially positive, I'd have thought. I'm thinking of how the strong and vigorous opening subsides into another passage of rather spooky unease about halfway through the movement, even for a time threatening to fade away altogether for a minute or two. True, a recovery gradually builds up, lifted almost by its own bootstraps with those jabbing chords, thrusting the mood upwards almost defiantly: 'I will prevail. I will prevail!' But even then it's a temporary resurgence; the restlessness remains with us, and as the movement (and the symphony) draws to a close, I don't get the feeling that all will necessarily be well. Rather, there's an implied acceptance that all may not be well; that something that was intact at the close of the first symphony has been seriously damaged by the time of the composition of the end of the second.

I can understand why its initial reception was so strange - you know - that story about Elgar asking Billy Reed why the audience were just sitting there like a lot of stuffed pigs. The ending must have left them - as it tends to leave me - not knowing quite where I am, or what I feel. I don't say this is a bad thing by any means. It may in many ways be a more profound symphony than the first, because it stares certain bleak truths in the face rather than pushing them aside. But these are the things that stop it being a favourite of mine. If an artist insists I be made to feel uneasy, I'll go along with that, and may have my eyes opened to important things as a result; but usually I can't say I'm sufficiently comfortable with the experience to think in terms of endearment about it.

[madaboutmahler]

Welcome Daniel! I think very similarly about Elgar's 2nd symphony. I find it about 5 % better that the first symphony and one of Elgar's finest works. If the 1st symphony starts stunning well, the finale of the 2nd is Elgar at his best. 

Thank you! Glad to find another passionate admirer of Elgar's 2nd symphony! Yes, it is so difficult to chose which of the symphonies I prefer as I love them so much! The second symphony just about wins due to that extra bit more emotion it evokes from me, especially in the largo and last few minutes of the finale.

Even the slow movement I'd describe as tragic or funereal rather than beautiful - though it is of course beautiful - but in a heart-rending 'this is the irrecoverable end of something precious' way. Where the first symphony is essentially optimistic in outlook (hardly a contentious claim, for Elgar himself described it thus), I feel that his optimism has taken a serious hammering by the time we get to the 2nd.

Yes, well, the slow movement is a funeral march with its solemn melody in the trumpets with the chords provided by the rest of the orchestra. I can completely understand, and agree, with what you say about the optimism differences between the 1st and 2nd symphonies. I wouldn't say that the 2nd symphony is in any way pessimistic, but by the end of the piece, the optimism from the opening has been much damaged. Both of the symphonies end with major keys, but the first ends with that magnificent A Flat Major from the whole orchestra, while the second finishes on a diminuendo Eb major chord that must present some kind of anguish, while being absolutely stunning at the same time, what orchestration with those trills in the winds (the first time he used trills in the whole symphony!). Maybe the ending is a way of mourning the optimism that the symphony began with. The fact that Elgar entitled the symphony "the passionate pilgrimage of the soul" could suggest a variety of explanations for this, a journey from life to death maybe? Opinions please!

Yes, a live recording from Moscow, 1977. The program included Sea Pictures...in Russian. (I imagine Karl would like to hear this.) The "Slavic" voice works quite well in the more somber songs like "Sea Slumber" but it won't soon replace Janet Baker. It's been awhile since I last listened to the CD. I'll need to hear it again, refresh my memory, before commenting on the performance of the symphony.

In Russian? ... well that certainly would be interesting! I shall add it to my amazon wishlist and purchase soon. Oh certainly, not many could even compare to Janet Baker in excellence - well, there are not many to compare unfortunately, not many recordings of Sea Pictures available! But my personal favourite would probably be this more recent Naxos recording from Connolly. What do you think of this one?

[asin]B000JBWUOE [/asin]

Have a nice evening everyone,
Best Wishes
Daniel

[Vesteralen]

I first heard the 1st Symphony back in the mid-1970's when I got Boult's performance on the Musical Heritage Society reissue.  I loved it from the beginning. 

It wasn't till much later that I listened to the 2nd for the first time.  I think it was Barbarolli on a Seraphim reissue.  Of course, we're talking about LPs here.  I found it much less immediately appealing than the 1st, and I'm afraid I only listened to it once or twice and then just set it aside.

I've tried listening to it again on CD more recently, but I never felt the urge to get to know it better (much like "Falstaff", another Elgar work that just doesn't make much of an impression on me).

I find that my CD collection right now only has the Menuhin/RPO performances of the symphonies.  I've never really liked Menuhin as a conductor, so I'm not really sure how I ended up with this set as my only one. 

I actually like the Payne "elaboration" of the 3rd symphony much better than any version of the 2nd I've heard so far.  I will need to try the 2nd again in one of the versions you all have recommended here.

[eyeresist]

I must admit I haven't completely "bought" the Elgar symphonies, though I've owned a few versions:

Tate / heard many years ago, impression of great lethargy
Barbirolli EMI / probably the most reliable, if not the most faithful
Menuhin / has the swift tempos I'm looking for, but too plain
Solti / too hardbitten
A Davis / acceptable, but not conversion material (as noted above, the Warner sound is a problem)
Slatkin / decent, but inferior to Davis

I think I really need to hear the composer's recordings - I was very impressed by his Enigma.

I'm also wondering about the Previn. This music really should suit him, but he never gets a wholehearted recommendation. I'm guessing the old RCA sound isn't great and the LSO a little scrappy? Should I bother?

[TheGSMoeller]

I'm also wondering about the Previn. This music really should suit him, but he never gets a wholehearted recommendation. I'm guessing the old RCA sound isn't great and the LSO a little scrappy? Should I bother?

Sarge strongly recommended the Previn recording of Symphony No.1 to me, we both share the same favorite for No.2 (Sinopoli) so I had no problem with his Previn choice.

[Mirror Image]

People seem to be forgetting Colin Davis's LSO Live performances of the symphonies, which I actually enjoyed. Barbirolli's and Sinopoli's readings are also good. The Sinopoli may very well be the underdog of the lot. I also shouldn't forget Adrian Boult's recordings, specifically the Lyrita performances with the London Philharmonic.

[Mirror Image]

Found this out-of-print 2-CD set with Adrian Boult for $8:



Can't wait to hear these!

[Elgarian]

Found this out-of-print 2-CD set with Adrian Boult for $8:



Can't wait to hear these!

That's an outstanding set, and I can't imagine you not being thrilled by it. That's the one I referred to in my earlier post, when I said it was the one I tended mostly to reach for.

[Elgarian]

I actually like the Payne "elaboration" of the 3rd symphony much better than any version of the 2nd I've heard so far.  I will need to try the 2nd again in one of the versions you all have recommended here.

I can understand where you're coming from, there. I find the third symphony unforgettable, and I think Anthony Payne worked something close to a miracle in putting it together. Favourite moments: I love when the 'Arthur' music surfaces. That is so, so Elgar! Struggling at the end of his life to compose a major work, and still, and still, chivalry and the noble ideal will survive!

And the first movement - oh wow! That dark, surging warning that opens the symphony like a great sea, swelling - and then giving way to the exquisitely feminine second theme that breaks your heart. Again - so very Elgar. By this time he'd met another female muse - Vera Hockman - and she's enshrined in this symphony much as the Windflower is captured in the violin concerto.

If you haven't encountered the Vera Hockman story, try this fabulous book, which will make you reach for the tissues on occasion, and gives real insight into the third symphony:



Available here:
http://www.elgarfoundation.org/index.php/the-elgar-shop/books/product/30/95/Books/Biographies/elgar-in-love

[mc ukrneal]

Found this out-of-print 2-CD set with Adrian Boult for $8:



Can't wait to hear these!

That is what I have roughly (it was a 3 CD set that includes all you have there, plus Enigma, P&C, Cockaigne). I like this version, though I have never gotten another, so I hope it works for you too.

This reminds me how I found Elgar. I was in a Tower Records (remember those!) and there was a sale on this set. I only knew Elgar's P&C (Pomp and Circumstance if you were wondering), and I had played the one they play at graduations to death. Over and over (it took me a long time to listen to that track)! But I knew nothing else of Elgar and I had never heard of Boult. But there was this set on sale and I grabbed it! It was probably my first totally spontaneous purchase knowing absolutely nothing about pieces, performers, etc. Well, I think Boult is a good teacher, because I never sought out a replacement.

And this brings me to the second symphony. I think all this talk about it being 'harder' does it a dis-service. When I first heard it, I didn't know if it was was easier or harder, slower or faster, better or worse, etc., and I was immediately taken with it. Probably, coming at it without any knowledge of it beforehand was a boon, as I didn't have some sort of preconception that it was harder or more challenging in some way.  When I think about it, this symphony reminds me in many ways of the Music Makers. Hmm, I had never thought to group the music together to see if there was some sort of thread between them. Will have to think more on this.

What I think throws people off on #2 sometimes (purely a guess on my part) is the apparent choppiness of it. That is, the themes deteriorate as part of a transformational process. But for me, this goes directly to the core of why I think it works so well, maybe because it is a structural feature throughout. It all seems to move logically for me too: happiness and transformation (mvmt 1), leading to sadness (in mvmt 2), leading to anxiety and anger (mvmt 3) and returning to happiness (in mvmt 4, but not at the same starting place - less innocent perhaps, a sense of loss, and yet a sense of renewal too). In this sense, Boult seems to have the piece reach its emotional apex during the final climax in the fourth movement (which takes place about 3/4 of the way through it).   

One other comment, this symphony is among the most 'daydreamable' for me, meaning it engages by imagination and lets it float away with the music if I let it. Only a few pieces get me that 'free'.

[Elgarian]

I think all this talk about it [the 2nd symphony] being 'harder' does it a dis-service.

I can see why you might say that, but of course from the point of view of one who does find it hard, it's not so much a disservice as an inescapable fact, albeit a regrettable one. I've been finding it 'hard' for (quick arithmetic) 48 years!!! And I guess, for all those reasons you mention. Your 'choppiness' is probably my 'restlessness', I suspect - for example. And I should stress that I'm not arguing that these are shortcomings of the work itself; they're the things that prevent it from being a personal favourite, which is a very different matter.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I prefer the Second Symphony. It is a much more coherent piece. The First uses a motto to bind everything together, but I don't see anything inexorable about the movements' progress. Taken on their own, all of them are wonderful, but I have never felt that they contributed to a central statement. The conclusion of the symphony is overwhelming, though, if done properly - Colin Davis and the Staatskapelle Dresden really are outstanding here, in my opinion. As for the Second Symphony, the opening puts you smack in the middle of what this work is going to be about - the 'Spirit of Delight', and its rare appearances. The work is a quest through wildly differing moods, ending in acceptance, or sad serenity.


Just my few cents.