Elgar's Hillside

[Sergeant Rock]

Tate / heard many years ago, impression of great lethargy
Solti / too hardbitten

I'm also wondering about the Previn. This music really should suit him, but he never gets a wholehearted recommendation. I'm guessing the old RCA sound isn't great and the LSO a little scrappy? Should I bother?

Sarge strongly recommended the Previn recording of Symphony No.1 to me...

Right. Previn's First goes to the desert island with me. The recording I'm talking about is with the RPO and the label Philips (not LSO/RCA).



Boult EMI, Solti and Tate I also like. Solti and Tate are sort of the alpha and omega of interpretive possibilities. I understand why you'd characterize one as hardbitten and the other lethargic. I'd choose more flattering adjectives though    Boult and Previn don't have their extremes.

Sarge

[Archaic Torso of Apollo]

I prefer the Second Symphony. It is a much more coherent piece. The First uses a motto to bind everything together, but I don't see anything inexorable about the movements' progress. Taken on their own, all of them are wonderful, but I have never felt that they contributed to a central statement.

I disagree with this. I find the 1st Symphony does have a central idea, where the grandiose intro theme represents a kind of ideal world, which the rest of the symphony struggles to get back to.

The 2nd is also coherent, but it feels more elusive, misty and uneasy. Maybe it's the "deeper" piece, in the sense that there are more layers and more ambiguity.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I disagree with this. I find the 1st Symphony does have a central idea, where the grandiose intro theme represents a kind of ideal world, which the rest of the symphony struggles to get back to

Well put. I'd rather see the 'ideal world' as the outcome of a struggle, though. Yes, the opening could be considered as the vision the rest of the symphony is striving towards. But to me the First sounds more like a circular argument. The Second, on the other hand, lives in a far more dangerous world. That's why I prefer it. Its conclusion is not foregone, where I have the feeling the one of the First is.

[Elgarian]

I find the 1st Symphony does have a central idea, where the grandiose intro theme represents a kind of ideal world, which the rest of the symphony struggles to get back to.

Strikes me as an excellent brief description of it. Or it least, it's a description which resembles my own response to it - which may not be the same thing!

I need to be careful how I express this to avoid misunderstanding - but the fact is that I get more feeling of coherence, that is, of a central idea, from Elgar's 1st symphony, than from any other symphony I know. I'm not saying that it really is the most coherent, but registering my own perception of coherence. That is, I'm talking about my personal experience of it, as a statement about the noble ideal which, despite all obstacles, re-emerges in its nobility and optimism. The passage in the final movement, where the militaristic march is redeemed and transformed into a passage of spiritual grace, paving the way for the return of the great opening theme - that's one of the most moving musical experiences I know.

[Elgarian]

The Second, on the other hand, lives in a far more dangerous world. That's why I prefer it.

Brilliantly put! That's why I (being generally chicken-livered and seeking reassurance) don't.

[mc ukrneal]

This 1st vs 2nd thing is turning quite interesting. In rooting around the internet, I came across this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/classical/elgar/notes/note_symph2.shtml. I think you will find it interesting.

I liked this excerpt: Trading one work against another is pointless and both Elgar's First and Second symphonies have an equal claim to our esteem. The Second, though written for the same size orchestra with the addition of a high E flat clarinet and tambourine, certainly does have more complicated textures, and sounds more opulent. It requires the orchestral strings, in particular, to be athletic. As a violinist himself, and also a conductor with considerable experience, Elgar knew what he was asking. In both symphonies, the two harps make a very important contribution, sometimes cushioning the ensemble, sometimes giving it a pearly, luminous quality. In the Second Symphony, the way in which themes migrate, transformed, from movement to movement is particularly subtle, and very natural. The work as a whole is also more mellow, less dramatic, than the First Symphony, whose sharp contrasts of key from movement to movement, or section to section, are avoided, although in the Second Elgar's harmony is very mobile, chromatic and, for short periods, deliberately bewildering.

And from this site, http://www.elgar.org/3symph2x.htm, I enjoyed this quote: Elgar described his second symphony as 'the passionate pilgrimage of a soul'. The score is headed by a quotation from a poem by Shelley: "Rarely, rarely comest thou spirit of delight!" Elgar wrote of it: "To get near the mood of the Symphony the whole of Shelley's poem may be read, but the music does not illustrate the whole of the poem, neither does the poem entirely elucidate the music'. What it does suggest is the music's predominantly restless and tragic character. It is a study in conflict and paradox. Exuberance followed by depression; gregariousness followed by withdrawal; optimism giving way to resigned fatalism and a deep nostalgia for vanished times.

The bolded portions are what really struck a chord with me (haha).

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Many thanks for that fruitful trawl!

[madaboutmahler]

People seem to be forgetting Colin Davis's LSO Live performances of the symphonies, which I actually enjoyed. Barbirolli's and Sinopoli's readings are also good. The Sinopoli may very well be the underdog of the lot. I also shouldn't forget Adrian Boult's recordings, specifically the Lyrita performances with the London Philharmonic.

The Davis/LSO performances are certainly excellent, although I think the recording quality lets them down a little. And sometimes I find Davis to be so dreadfully slow, and often you can hear him humming along which may become rather distracting. I think the best of Davis' LSO cycle (including that dragging performance of the Enigma) is actually his recording of Payne's completion of no.3 which is full of excitement. I think I would actually have the Davis/LSO as my favourite performance of this symphony. But for the other two symphonies, I find Davis is far beaten by Solti, Boult (both EMI and Lyrita releases), Handley and Elder.

Found this out-of-print 2-CD set with Adrian Boult for $8:



Can't wait to hear these!

John, those are absolutely amazing performances, full of passion and beauty. The performance of "In the South" that comes with it is also breathtaking and is among my favourite performances of this piece, alongside Sir Alexander Gibson's excellent Chandos release. I find Solti a little uninspired in this piece actually unfortunately.... Although, you may hear a few little problems with the remastering, such as sudden changes in dynamic, or just a little bit of hissing, but this really does not take away from the excellence of the performance.

And that brings me onto another question, which are your favourite performances of the concert overtures? For all 3 of them, my choice would have to be Sir Alexander Gibson with the Scottish National Orchestra on Chandos. It is such a shame that Gibson was not on such excellent form in his performance of the 2nd symphony which is very dull!
[asin]B00006ANZQ[/asin]

For Cockaigne, I also love BBCSO/A.Davis and LPO/Solti, for In The South I also rate very highly the LPO/Boult (EMI) and for Froissart I really adore the very first recording I had of it which was the Philharmonia/Barbirolli.

Oh yes, what does everyone think of Elgar's early "Froissart"? I personally think it is a wonderful piece...

I am much enjoying all the discussion here!
Have a nice day everyone!
Best Wishes
Daniel

[karlhenning]

. . . Boult EMI, Solti and Tate I also like. Solti and Tate are sort of the alpha and omega of interpretive possibilities. I understand why you'd characterize one as hardbitten and the other lethargic. I'd choose more flattering adjectives though 

Indeed!  Tate brought me home with the symphonies.  I had the Andrew Davis earlier (5-6 years before?), and they didn't sell me at first; don't know why, as my revisitation to them (must be the same recordings, only a new and fuller package) in the 5-CD Warner box has been entirely enjoyable.

[Elgarian]

This 1st vs 2nd thing is turning quite interesting. In rooting around the internet, I came across this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/classical/elgar/notes/note_symph2.shtml. I think you will find it interesting.

Interesting in a variety of ways, one of which lies in this statement:
"At the end he printed 'Venice – Tintagel' and said that the beginnings of the second and third movements respectively expressed the contrast between the interior of St Mark's and the Piazza outside. However, Tintagel, the ruined castle on the Cornish coast that was to inspire Arnold Bax's sumptuously picturesque tone-poem a few years later, hasn't been identified with any particular part of Elgar's score. These labels are surely no more than circumstantial, and don't offer deep insights into the music."

I don't believe that sentence I've put in bold, for a moment. In April 1910 (smack in the middle of the period of composition of the 2nd symphony, I think) Elgar's 'Windflower', Alice Stuart Wortley was on holiday in Tintagel, and Elgar went to visit them. I think we can be quite certain that the words 'Venice-Tintagel' do offer deep insights into the music - but we can't be quite sure how. I mean, just think: Tintagel as a symbol of the chivalric ideal, lost in history, and in ruin (both actual and symbolic - and let's not forget his use of the 'Arthur' themes in the 3rd symphony), combined with the presence of the (alas, married) Windflower .... quintessential Elgar inspirational sources!

[karlhenning]

Alan, what is (or, are, as may be) your preferred recording(s) of the Third Symphony?

[mc ukrneal]

Interesting in a variety of ways, one of which lies in this statement:
"At the end he printed 'Venice – Tintagel' and said that the beginnings of the second and third movements respectively expressed the contrast between the interior of St Mark's and the Piazza outside. However, Tintagel, the ruined castle on the Cornish coast that was to inspire Arnold Bax's sumptuously picturesque tone-poem a few years later, hasn't been identified with any particular part of Elgar's score. These labels are surely no more than circumstantial, and don't offer deep insights into the music."

I don't believe that sentence I've put in bold, for a moment. In April 1910 (smack in the middle of the period of composition of the 2nd symphony, I think) Elgar's 'Windflower', Alice Stuart Wortley was on holiday in Tintagel, and Elgar went to visit them. I think we can be quite certain that the words 'Venice-Tintagel' do offer deep insights into the music - but we can't be quite sure how. I mean, just think: Tintagel as a symbol of the chivalric ideal, lost in history, and in ruin (both actual and symbolic - and let's not forget his use of the 'Arthur' themes in the 3rd symphony), combined with the presence of the (alas, married) Windflower .... quintessential Elgar inspirational sources!

You might consider this as well then: http://www.signumrecords.com/catalogue/sigcd179/SIGCD179-webbooklet.pdf. This is a signum pdf manual to the symphonies.

This quote in particular: The composer's annotations for a programme note on the work give mention to the occasional extra-musical inspiration. While these are informative they in no way tell us what any particular passage or movement is actually about and Elgar was less than willing to encourage too much speculation – his gnomic utterances are often about as much help as the composer likely wanted them to be.

[karlhenning]

You might consider this as well then: http://www.signumrecords.com/catalogue/sigcd179/SIGCD179-webbooklet.pdf. This is a signum pdf manual to the symphonies.

Thanks for this.

[Elgarian]

Alan, what is (or, are, as may be) your preferred recording(s) of the Third Symphony?

I only have two:



I find both of these excellent. I tend to prefer the Daniel, but maybe that's because it was the first I heard.

But I also have this:

Anthony Payne chats his way through his reconstruction. And of course there's Payne's book:



I saw him some months ago as I was walking through the bar in the interval of a concert. Dithered for a moment, then approached and said merely 'thank you very much indeed for rescuing that wonderful symphony', shook his hand, and carried on my way. He looked a bit bemused, but pleased I think.

[karlhenning]

Thanks, Alan!

[Elgarian]

This quote in particular: The composer's annotations for a programme note on the work give mention to the occasional extra-musical inspiration. While these are informative they in no way tell us what any particular passage or movement is actually about and Elgar was less than willing to encourage too much speculation – his gnomic utterances are often about as much help as the composer likely wanted them to be.

I suppose it depends on how literalist we want to be. If we're looking for some kind of bar-by-bar parallelism, we won't find it; but as a general overarching concept, I find certain themes (I mention them all the time, so won't reiterate them here) enormously helpful in appreciating Elgar's music in general. It's true that he was inconsistent in what he said; it's true that he liked to be enigmatic in his comments; but I don't think that means he didn't genuinely have in mind some broad-scale parallelism between certain key ideas, and the music. So for instance, we can listen to the works purely as music (in the same way as some English academics approach novels specifically without reference to the biography of the author). And there's a special value in doing that, I've no doubt. But if (as I do) we want to understand the whole picture - 'music PLUS...', if you like - and come as close as possible to the full intention of the composer (admittedly with all the problems that drags along), then these extra-musical references can make enormous differences to the way we approach, and respond to, the work.

Am I just rambling aimlessly? I might be....

[Mirror Image]

The Davis/LSO performances are certainly excellent, although I think the recording quality lets them down a little. And sometimes I find Davis to be so dreadfully slow, and often you can hear him humming along which may become rather distracting. I think the best of Davis' LSO cycle (including that dragging performance of the Enigma) is actually his recording of Payne's completion of no.3 which is full of excitement. I think I would actually have the Davis/LSO as my favourite performance of this symphony. But for the other two symphonies, I find Davis is far beaten by Solti, Boult (both EMI and Lyrita releases), Handley and Elder.

John, those are absolutely amazing performances, full of passion and beauty. The performance of "In the South" that comes with it is also breathtaking and is among my favourite performances of this piece, alongside Sir Alexander Gibson's excellent Chandos release. I find Solti a little uninspired in this piece actually unfortunately.... Although, you may hear a few little problems with the remastering, such as sudden changes in dynamic, or just a little bit of hissing, but this really does not take away from the excellence of the performance.

And that brings me onto another question, which are your favourite performances of the concert overtures? For all 3 of them, my choice would have to be Sir Alexander Gibson with the Scottish National Orchestra on Chandos. It is such a shame that Gibson was not on such excellent form in his performance of the 2nd symphony which is very dull!
[asin]B00006ANZQ[/asin]

For Cockaigne, I also love BBCSO/A.Davis and LPO/Solti, for In The South I also rate very highly the LPO/Boult (EMI) and for Froissart I really adore the very first recording I had of it which was the Philharmonia/Barbirolli.

Oh yes, what does everyone think of Elgar's early "Froissart"? I personally think it is a wonderful piece...

I am much enjoying all the discussion here!

Have a nice day everyone!

Best Wishes
Daniel

Good to see you discussing this music, Daniel. I know you're passionate about Elgar's music and, thus, you're far more positive regarding his music than I am. I enjoy Elgar's music, but I'm still coming to grips with the music as it doesn't hit me right in the gut like many composers do, but I'm making some progress! Last night, I listened to The Wand of Youth Suites and the Nursery Suite, which I think are some of the greatest things to come from Elgar's pen IMHO. They are light-hearted works and don't present any kind of drama, but the music is so exquisitely crafted, tuneful, and there are some absolute gorgeous slow movements in these works that you would enjoy. Dream Children was also a beautiful work. All of these works were featured on a James Judd/New Zealand Symphony recording on Naxos that I plan on revisiting soon.

Honestly, I don't think it gets much better than Barbirolli in Elgar's symphonies. He has the full measure of this music. I haven't heard the Boult on EMI, but the Boult on Lyrita is also stunningly played with real conviction and authority. The Sinopoli Elgar recordings are also worth checking out if you haven't already, Daniel. He performed a killer In the South that will knock your socks off. I never cared much about Solti's Elgar recordings. I prefer Solti in Bartok and Wagner.

[karlhenning]

. . . Dream Children was also a beautiful work.

Heard that for the first time recently, as I make my gradual way through the Andrew Davis Elgar box-let. A minor work, but lovely, indeed.

[mc ukrneal]

I suppose it depends on how literalist we want to be. If we're looking for some kind of bar-by-bar parallelism, we won't find it; but as a general overarching concept, I find certain themes (I mention them all the time, so won't reiterate them here) enormously helpful in appreciating Elgar's music in general. It's true that he was inconsistent in what he said; it's true that he liked to be enigmatic in his comments; but I don't think that means he didn't genuinely have in mind some broad-scale parallelism between certain key ideas, and the music. So for instance, we can listen to the works purely as music (in the same way as some English academics approach novels specifically without reference to the biography of the author). And there's a special value in doing that, I've no doubt. But if (as I do) we want to understand the whole picture - 'music PLUS...', if you like - and come as close as possible to the full intention of the composer (admittedly with all the problems that drags along), then these extra-musical references can make enormous differences to the way we approach, and respond to, the work.

Am I just rambling aimlessly? I might be....

Maybe, but who cares! We're having fun! And besides, I think it's allowed where Elgar is concerned!

Seriously, no - not rambling at all. I think the fact that it is not clear is what makes it so fascinating. I'm not quite as convinced as you are, but your thoughts on the matter are interesting (and different). And if they are helpful and important to you in understanding the music, then following where they lead is worthwhile.

[madaboutmahler]

I find both of these excellent. I tend to prefer the Daniel, but maybe that's because it was the first I heard.

I saw him some months ago as I was walking through the bar in the interval of a concert. Dithered for a moment, then approached and said merely 'thank you very much indeed for rescuing that wonderful symphony', shook his hand, and carried on my way. He looked a bit bemused, but pleased I think.

The Daniel was also the first that I heard, but maybe I find the LSO Davis recording slightly more exciting in the climaxes. However both are excellent, and both are inexpensive, so you don't have to choose between them, buy them both!

There are two recordings of the 3rd symphony I do not own, and these are the Hickox and the Otaka. Does anyone own these? If so, please tell me your opinion!

How wonderful that you shook his hand! It must have been great to meet him. Not often do I get to meet musicians at concerts But not so long ago I was sitting very near to Alan Gilbert at a BBC Prom! And another time I was standing only a few meters away from Vladimir Jurowski, didn't get to talk to them though. It is my ambition to be a conductor and composer, so hopefully I'll meet many musicians then!

Good to see you discussing this music, Daniel. I know you're passionate about Elgar's music and, thus, you're far more positive regarding his music than I am. I enjoy Elgar's music, but I'm still coming to grips with the music as it doesn't hit me right in the gut like many composers do, but I'm making some progress! Last night, I listened to The Wand of Youth Suites and the Nursery Suite, which I think are some of the greatest things to come from Elgar's pen IMHO. They are light-hearted works and don't present any kind of drama, but the music is so exquisitely crafted, tuneful, and there are some absolute gorgeous slow movements in these works that you would enjoy. Dream Children was also a beautiful work. All of these works were featured on a James Judd/New Zealand Symphony recording on Naxos that I plan on revisiting soon.

Honestly, I don't think it gets much better than Barbirolli in Elgar's symphonies. He has the full measure of this music. I haven't heard the Boult on EMI, but the Boult on Lyrita is also stunningly played with real conviction and authority. The Sinopoli Elgar recordings are also worth checking out if you haven't already, Daniel. He performed a killer In the South that will knock your socks off. I never cared much about Solti's Elgar recordings. I prefer Solti in Bartok and Wagner.

Nice to see you here as well, John! haha I absolutely adore the Wand of Youth Suites and Nursery Suite! So much wonderful music. I think the Wand of Youth Suites would be in my top 10 Elgar pieces, don't you just adore the tuneful, delightful movements such as "Little Bells" and "Fountain Dance" and the excitement and thrill in the two finales! "Dream Children" is such a beautiful piece, I agree! When I was on holiday in Italy, I would listen to that every day to start my morning while overlooking the beautiful view of Lake Como we had from our balcony. It is such a beautiful piece, so melodic and charming, and yet so simple! I also own the Judd naxos release you talk about, it is certainly excellent. A must for any Elgar fan! As you seem to like the Wand of Youth suites/nursery suite/Dream Children, I will recommend this cd on Chandos which has all three!

[asin]B000OMCIVI[/asin]

I am sure you will love the Boult EMI, may I also suggest Sir Mark Elder's excellent releases with the Halle?

Have a nice day everyone!
Daniel