Elgar's Hillside

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ABSOLUTELY! Concerning the premiere, I do wonder! Maybe they were basing their response in comparison to the 1st symphony, which as you know was an incredible success. How each ends is possibly a good debate for the mixed responses. Wheras the 1st ends with glory from the orchestral tutti, in a very clear, celebratory mood, the 2nd ends with a very different kind of glory, so subtle and magical and reflective. Perhaps the audiences did not quite get this as much.... just some thoughts that came into mind!

I believe the 1st received around a hundred or more performances internationally. Very, very impressive. I believe Symphony No. 2 is much more introspective, but it does have it's moments of manic orchestra outbursts. That Larghetto is so enrapturing. It completely engulfs the listener.

[madaboutmahler]

I believe the 1st received around a hundred or more performances internationally. Very, very impressive. I believe Symphony No. 2 is much more introspective, but it does have it's moments of manic orchestra outbursts. That Larghetto is so enrapturing. It completely engulfs the listener.

You should see the score for the climax of the Larghetto of the 2nd, so many magical layers all together! Absolutely incredible movement!

[Mirror Image]

You should see the score for the climax of the Larghetto of the 2nd, so many magical layers all together! Absolutely incredible movement!

Elgar was a master of orchestration, so I'm sure visually, it is quite appealing. Actually performed, however, sends my mind into the stratosphere. Utterly enthralling.

[Elgarian]

Thanks for your feedback, Alan. As for the DVD, did you enjoy the documentary? I wish BBC would release the Man Behind The Mask documentary on DVD. I didn't watch all of that program, but it seemed like a good one. I usually don't think too much about the visuals these companies use because they're more from a subjective point-of-view. I'm looking for more substance than visuals.

Well of course we all have different priorities. If I'm going to watch something while the music is being performed, I want it to be worth watching, and in sympathy with the music, rather than (as here) a rather unconvincing attempt to show that Enigma is somehow 'up to date'. Others may love it, of course, but it didn't work for me particularly well. The documentary is OK, but I doubt you'll learn anything from it that you don't already know.

As for the recording of The Spirit of England with Gibson, why should I skip Coronation Ode?

The only reason from my point of view is that The Spirit of England is not just 'one of Elgar's war efforts', but the Elgar work that I'd choose, above all, if I could only have one. Idiosyncratic that may be, but I've been banging this particular drum so often and for so long here now, that folk may wonder whether I ever listen to anything else. Coronation Ode is a perfectly enjoyable piece, but not (in my view) in the same league; and you asked 'where should I start?' - so I offered where I would start, in your place. For here, above all, is Elgar's most direct and greatest response not just to the Great War, but to all wars, and all tragic loss, and to the need for gratitude, remembrance and hope. And (still speaking purely personally) I've never found an alternative recording that comes close to expressing all this so effectively as this one. It's one of my greatest musical treasures.

[Mirror Image]

Well of course we all have different priorities. If I'm going to watch something while the music is being performed, I want it to be worth watching, and in sympathy with the music, rather than (as here) a rather unconvincing attempt to show that Enigma is somehow 'up to date'. Others may love it, of course, but it didn't work for me particularly well. The documentary is OK, but I doubt you'll learn anything from it that you don't already know.

The only reason from my point of view is that The Spirit of England is not just 'one of Elgar's war efforts', but the Elgar work that I'd choose, above all, if I could only have one. Idiosyncratic that may be, but I've been banging this particular drum so often and for so long here now, that folk may wonder whether I ever listen to anything else. Coronation Ode is a perfectly enjoyable piece, but not (in my view) in the same league; and you asked 'where should I start?' - so I offered where I would start, in your place. For here, above all, is Elgar's most direct and greatest response not just to the Great War, but to all wars, and all tragic loss, and his recognition of the need for gratitude, remembrance and hope. And (still speaking purely personally) I've never found an alternative recording that comes close to expressing all this so effectively as this one. It's one of my greatest musical treasures.

Again, Alan, your feedback is greatly welcomed. I understand your sentiments about this Enigma Variations DVD. Of course, subjectively, what you consider not worth your time, may very well mean the opposite for myself, so I'll remain open-minded about it.

Since you feel this strongly about The Spirit of England, I will definitely listen to it first (whenever I receive it). Symphony No. 2 could very well be a response to war as well since it was written in the aftermath of WWI. The same could be said of the Cello Concerto, which both contain so many moments of introspection that it could be understood as a lament for those that have died in the war.

[Brian]

Both Elgar's symphonies are masterpieces IMHO, but it's interesting to read of the lukewarm reception Symphony No. 2 had at its' premiere. I can't find anything wrong with this symphony. It's an incredible display of orchestral flair, heartbreaking lyricism, and tight symphonic structure.

I don't wonder about that reception, actually. It's not an easy symphony to take in at once: there's such a feeling of emotional ambiguity, there's so much pain and loss without sugar-coating, and I think it would have taken many of his listeners by surprise. Moreover, quiet endings have always had problems with audiences, which is too bad, because I love quiet endings.

But I know the first time I heard Elgar's Second - which was indeed live - I felt that I had much more work to do on the piece. The first movement is especially intimidating, insofar as, when you've never heard it before it's very very difficult to figure out what musical/emotional paths Elgar is going to follow. The symphony is a long, arduous journey. We needn't chide the first listeners for having a hard time digesting such an incredible, meaty work.

[Mirror Image]

I don't wonder about that reception, actually. It's not an easy symphony to take in at once: there's such a feeling of emotional ambiguity, there's so much pain and loss without sugar-coating, and I think it would have taken many of his listeners by surprise. Moreover, quiet endings have always had problems with audiences, which is too bad, because I love quiet endings.

But I know the first time I heard Elgar's Second - which was indeed live - I felt that I had much more work to do on the piece. The first movement is especially intimidating, insofar as, when you've never heard it before it's very very difficult to figure out what musical/emotional paths Elgar is going to follow. The symphony is a long, arduous journey. We needn't chide the first listeners for having a hard time digesting such an incredible, meaty work.

No, I suppose not, Brian. I just find it amusing is all. But, yes, the 2nd has a lot of musical material to digest. Quiet endings have always been something I enjoyed to because they against what we're expecting of a finale much of the time. It too me several times with both of Elgar's symphonies to come to fully appreciate them. Now, of course, I love them and wouldn't be without them.

[Elgarian]

Symphony No. 2 could very well be a response to war as well since it was written in the aftermath of WWI.

Not so - first performed in 1911 I believe. Though one might regard it as more 'pessimistic' than the first symphony (like Brian, I think it's a lot harder for most listeners to tackle than the 1st), there are various plausible reasons proposed for that; but notably, the Great War was still 3 years ahead. Of course he would be aware of 'rumblings' and increased tension; and there would be added significance for him because the Germans had been very good to his music.

The same could be said of the Cello Concerto, which both contain so many moments of introspection that it could be understood as a lament for those that have died in the war.

I don't think there's any doubt that the war influenced Elgar profoundly, and thereby influenced the later works - the cello concerto, the chamber music, and even the 3rd symphony (again, a dark one with sweet moments). But there's no direct programme associated with those works, and my personal attitude to them is to regard them as expressions of a temperament that has been affected, among other things, by the war; but anything more specific would always be conjectural.

My point though, is that Spirit of England is not like that. We know exactly how and why it came to be written (it's well-documented, quite apart from the actual words that are sung), and we know pretty well how Elgar would want us to respond to it. We can approach it with a clear expectation of 'what it's about', even though I hesitate to say that so bluntly, for fear of suggesting some limitation in response.

Incidentally, we had some good chat about S of E back in June, starting around #1490:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3503.msg638041/topicseen.html#msg638041

[Mirror Image]

Not so - first performed in 1911 I believe. Though one might regard it as more 'pessimistic' than the first symphony (like Brian, I think it's a lot harder for most listeners to tackle than the 1st), there are various plausible reasons proposed for that; but notably, the Great War was still 3 years ahead. Of course he would be aware of 'rumblings' and increased tension; and there would be added significance for him because the Germans had been very good to his music.

Quite right. I got my dates mixed up! I must definitely be thinking about only the Cello Concerto then. Symphony No. 2, however, regardless of whether it was written before or after WWI does, in my opinion, have a feeling of hopelessness and isolation. Just my ears...not yours obviously.

I don't think there's any doubt that the war influenced Elgar profoundly, and thereby influenced the later works - the cello concerto, the chamber music, and even the 3rd symphony (again, a dark one with sweet moments). But there's no direct programme associated with those works, and my personal attitude to them is to regard them as expressions of a temperament that has been affected, among other things, by the war; but anything more specific would always be conjectural.

My point though, is that Spirit of England is not like that. We know exactly how and why it came to be written (it's well-documented, quite apart from the actual words that are sung), and we know pretty well how Elgar would want us to respond to it. We can approach it with a clear expectation of 'what it's about', even though I hesitate to say that so bluntly, for fear of suggesting some limitation in response.

You're correct that there's no program with works like the Cello Concerto but the emotions are undeniable I think. Like you said, I believe Elgar was affected by the war as well and whether or not we acknowledge these feelings in his music it doesn't mean that they aren't there or could be there. The Spirit of England will be a work I approach, like any new composition to me, with a blank canvas.

[Elgarian]

Symphony No. 2, however, regardless of whether it was written before or after WWI does, in my opinion, have a feeling of hopelessness and isolation. Just my ears...not yours obviously.

Not sure how you got that from what I said - hopelessness and desolation, most certainly. I hear that too. I just think the source of all that, within Elgar, can be interpreted very sensibly in a variety of ways.

[Mirror Image]

Not sure how you got that from what I said - hopelessness and desolation, most certainly. I hear that too. I just think the source of all that, within Elgar, can be interpreted very sensibly in a variety of ways.

Absolutely. All composers' music can interpreted in many ways, but it's good to know you hear what I hear too.

[Mirror Image]

I declare the month of January to be Elgar listening month!

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Greg will be proud of me, just bought:



Now, no more purchases for the rest of the year. Next year, Tasmin Little's VC recording and Paul Watkins' Cello Concerto recording both with Sir Andrew Davis.

[TheGSMoeller]

Greg will be proud of me, just bought:



Now, no more purchases for the rest of the year. Next year, Tasmin Little's VC recording and Paul Watkins' Cello Concerto recording both with Sir Andrew Davis.

Bravo! 

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Concerning Symphony No. 2, Barbirolli still has the finest Larghetto on recording IMHO. There's just something about Barbirolli's Elgar performances that remain special to me. In a way, he has helped me understand his music more deeply.

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Bravo! 

Besides your enthusiasm for this recording, watching an excerpt from this same force's performance at the BBC Proms prompted me to drop what I'm doing and buy it immediately. Those huge walls of orchestra and choir sounded phenomenal.

[Mirror Image]

I really don't know what has come over me. I seldom even listened to Elgar several months ago and I examined his music many years ago, but, my goodness, something definitely happened to me. I'm picking up nuances in his music that I never quite heard before. I'm recognizing melodies and harmonies that I never picked up on. Need I go on?

"Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore."

[TheGSMoeller]

I really don't know what has come over me. I seldom even listened to Elgar several months ago and I examined his music many years ago, but, my goodness, something definitely happened to me. I'm picking up nuances in his music that I never quite heard before. I'm recognizing melodies and harmonies that I never picked up on. Need I go on?

"Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore."

You want some melodies, John? Then look no further than this disc...

[asin] B001M5AT80[/asin]

More than likely you have these works, but this disc is pure bliss from beginning to end.

[Mirror Image]

You want some melodies, John? Then look no further than this disc...

[asin] B001M5AT80[/asin]

More than likely you have these works, but this disc is pure bliss from beginning to end.

Oh, yes. I have heard these works many times, but I haven't bought this particular recording (yet). I haven't been too impressed with many of the Harmonia Mundi recordings I have bought that have gained critical acclaim, but it would be hard to mess up these works, so I'll keep it under the radar. Thanks, Greg.

Wait a minute...I can get it for $7...uhhhh....this CDCDCD is some horrible stuff..., but I'm going to resist the temptation.

[71 dB]

Such activity in this thread. I'm exhausted from working. This week I have been driving around Helsinki, Espoo and Vantaa delivering bottles to the best partners of the company I work in.  I had to deliver ALL of the bottles Helsinki has got plenty of snow. Lukily I got to drive a Nissan Terrano II 4-wheel drive turned on.

I see often people say that The Apostles and The Kingdom are long and a bit boring works but I rank them among Elgar's best achivements. Elgar's genius lies in quiet moments and these works contain lots of that, quiet but complex structures.