Elgar's Hillside

[Mirror Image]

Yes, it happens to everybody sooner or later, right?         Right.....   

Well for us Elgarians it certainly does.

[jfdrex]

I suspect most people start their Elgarian journey with the Enigma Variations or the Cello Concerto or the Pomp and Circumstance Marches.  But for me, it was the Seraphim LP release of that Barbirolli/Philharmonia recording of the First Symphony--my first purchase of a recording of anything by Elgar, some forty years ago.



And of course, I later obtained the same recording on CD.

It occurs to me now that this was a rather unusual recording with which to start an Elgar collection that now numbers in the hundreds of CDs in addition to the few dozen Elgarian LPs I acquired in the 1970s and '80s.  Moreover, I bought that LP without ever having heard the symphony; I can't really think what possessed me at the time, except that I was intrigued by the thought of an early 20th century romantic symphony that occupied an entire LP.

Come to think of it, this must have been the first Barbirolli recording I ever purchased.  But it most certainly was not the last.

[Mirror Image]

I suspect most people start their Elgarian journey with the Enigma Variations or the Cello Concerto or the Pomp and Circumstance Marches.  But for me, it was the Seraphim LP release of that Barbirolli/Philharmonia recording of the First Symphony--my first purchase of a recording of anything by Elgar, some forty years ago.



And of course, I later obtained the same recording on CD.

It occurs to me now that this was a rather unusual recording with which to start an Elgar collection that now numbers in the hundreds of CDs in addition to the few dozen Elgarian LPs I acquired in the 1970s and '80s.  Moreover, I bought that LP without ever having heard the symphony; I can't really think what possessed me at the time, except that I was intrigued by the thought of an early 20th century romantic symphony that occupied an entire LP.

Come to think of it, this must have been the first Barbirolli recording I ever purchased.  But it most certainly was not the last.

This very performance was my introduction to the world of Elgar as well. I had actually bought the Barbiolli box set (in it's older incarnation) and never looked back really. For some people, Elgar was an instant connection, for others, like myself, it took some time to appreciate his music and I did a lot of research/reading about his life. It just took time to understand the complexity of his character, but I'm certainly glad I gave his music an opportunity to grab me. It's been a rewarding musical journey so far.

[Moonfish]

Elgar: Symphony No 2            Hallé Orchestra/Barbirolli

Magnificent performance! I have listened to the Second symphony several times over the last few days and as always with Elgar's music it is becoming more of a musical gem than I could have ever imagined. This recording is rich and vibrant. The symphony truly comes alive with Hallé/Barbirolli. I am especially fond of the 2nd movement that truly becomes a breathing living beast as it develops. One can almost sense the music as a living being. I love the movement! I am less fond of the 3rd movement with its more chaotic themes (in my ears), but it is growing on me as well.
For some reason I sense a strong connection with Sibelius' symphonies the more I listen to the 2nd symphony. Not continuously, but many of the haunting themes seem related. Has anybody else sensed that auditory connection? Regardless, I would have a hard time to choose between the 1st and 2nd symphony if I could only bring one of them to my desert island.  It is great getting more familiar with Barbirolli's Elgar recordings.

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[jfdrex]

Elgar: Symphony No 2            Hallé Orchestra/Barbirolli

Magnificent performance! I have listened to the Second symphony several times over the last few days and as always with Elgar's music it is becoming more of a musical gem than I could have ever imagined. This recording is rich and vibrant. The symphony truly comes alive with Hallé/Barbirolli. I am especially fond of the 2nd movement that truly becomes a breathing living beast as it develops. One can almost sense the music as a living being. I love the movement! I am less fond of the 3rd movement with its more chaotic themes (in my ears), but it is growing on me as well.
For some reason I sense a strong connection with Sibelius' symphonies the more I listen to the 2nd symphony. Not continuously, but many of the haunting themes seem related. Has anybody else sensed that auditory connection? Regardless, I would have a hard time to choose between the 1st and 2nd symphony if I could only bring one of them to my desert island.  It is great getting more familiar with Barbirolli's Elgar recordings.

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Moonfish, that's a wonderful response to this symphony and to Barbirolli's performance.

As you doubtless know, whereas Elgar's First Symphony met with almost instant acclaim, the reception of the Second Symphony, for various reasons, was rather more muted, and Elgar considered the work a failure--or, at least, considered the public's reaction to the work indicative of some failing on his part as well as theirs.  (To Henry Wood immediately after the premiere:  "Henry, they don't like it, they don't like it"  To W. H. Reed:  "They [i.e., the audience] sit there like a lot of stuffed pigs.")

I can see where you are coming from in your reaction to the third movement.  It is intense (like much of Elgar's music), and has very definite moments of violence.  Elgar himself wrote that this movement represented "the madness that attends the excess or abuse of passion," and cited a passage from Tennyson's poem Maude in which the hero imagines his corpse lying in his grave:  "...the hoofs of the horses beat, beat into my scalp and brain..."

I was just reading a bit of the poem and discovered an explicit "windflower" connection that Elgar, although he does not quote it, in his knowing and subtle way certainly would have been aware of and, with his love of puzzles and enigmas, surely must have meant to be implicit in the music:

"The fault was mine, the fault was mine"—   
Why am I sitting here so stunn'd and still,   
Plucking the harmless wild-flower on the hill?—   
It is this guilty hand!—   
And there rises ever a passionate cry
From underneath in the darkening land—   
What is it, that has been done?

I'm intrigued that you hear a connection with Sibelius; I'd never considered that myself.  Personally, I find a similarity between the slow movement of this symphony and the Adagio of Bruckner's Seventh Symphony.  Both are expressions of heartbreak, and Elgar's oboe lament parallels Bruckner's solo flute.

[Mirror Image]

Elgar: Symphony No 2            Hallé Orchestra/Barbirolli

Magnificent performance! I have listened to the Second symphony several times over the last few days and as always with Elgar's music it is becoming more of a musical gem than I could have ever imagined. This recording is rich and vibrant. The symphony truly comes alive with Hallé/Barbirolli. I am especially fond of the 2nd movement that truly becomes a breathing living beast as it develops. One can almost sense the music as a living being. I love the movement! I am less fond of the 3rd movement with its more chaotic themes (in my ears), but it is growing on me as well.
For some reason I sense a strong connection with Sibelius' symphonies the more I listen to the 2nd symphony. Not continuously, but many of the haunting themes seem related. Has anybody else sensed that auditory connection? Regardless, I would have a hard time to choose between the 1st and 2nd symphony if I could only bring one of them to my desert island.  It is great getting more familiar with Barbirolli's Elgar recordings.

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Very nice response, Moonfish. My feelings about Symphony No. 2 have been well documented on this thread, so I won't reiterate them but let me just give a thumbs up to Barbirolli. I just knew you would would succumb to these magnificent performances. I do love Boult a lot as well. Do give Slatkin's Elgar a listen at some point. I was very surprised by his performances.

[Leo K.]

Moonfish, that's a wonderful response to this symphony and to Barbirolli's performance.

As you doubtless know, whereas Elgar's First Symphony met with almost instant acclaim, the reception of the Second Symphony, for various reasons, was rather more muted, and Elgar considered the work a failure--or, at least, considered the public's reaction to the work indicative of some failing on his part as well as theirs.  (To Henry Wood immediately after the premiere:  "Henry, they don't like it, they don't like it"  To W. H. Reed:  "They [i.e., the audience] sit there like a lot of stuffed pigs.")

I can see where you are coming from in your reaction to the third movement.  It is intense (like much of Elgar's music), and has very definite moments of violence.  Elgar himself wrote that this movement represented "the madness that attends the excess or abuse of passion," and cited a passage from Tennyson's poem Maude in which the hero imagines his corpse lying in his grave:  "...the hoofs of the horses beat, beat into my scalp and brain..."

I was just reading a bit of the poem and discovered an explicit "windflower" connection that Elgar, although he does not quote it, in his knowing and subtle way certainly would have been aware of and, with his love of puzzles and enigmas, surely must have meant to be implicit in the music:

“The fault was mine, the fault was mine”—
Why am I sitting here so stunn’d and still,
Plucking the harmless wild-flower on the hill?—
It is this guilty hand!—
And there rises ever a passionate cry
From underneath in the darkening land—
What is it, that has been done?

I'm intrigued that you hear a connection with Sibelius; I'd never considered that myself.  Personally, I find a similarity between the slow movement of this symphony and the Adagio of Bruckner's Seventh Symphony.  Both are expressions of heartbreak, and Elgar's oboe lament parallels Bruckner's solo flute.

Great post there, thanks!

And Moonfish, I too have been listening to the 2nd over and over, different performances. Glad you love the Barbirolli! I'll have to revisit him soon!

[Leo K.]

By the way, I think of Schumann sometimes when I hear the 2nd.

[Moonfish]

Moonfish, that's a wonderful response to this symphony and to Barbirolli's performance.

As you doubtless know, whereas Elgar's First Symphony met with almost instant acclaim, the reception of the Second Symphony, for various reasons, was rather more muted, and Elgar considered the work a failure--or, at least, considered the public's reaction to the work indicative of some failing on his part as well as theirs.  (To Henry Wood immediately after the premiere:  "Henry, they don't like it, they don't like it"  To W. H. Reed:  "They [i.e., the audience] sit there like a lot of stuffed pigs.")

I can see where you are coming from in your reaction to the third movement.  It is intense (like much of Elgar's music), and has very definite moments of violence.  Elgar himself wrote that this movement represented "the madness that attends the excess or abuse of passion," and cited a passage from Tennyson's poem Maude in which the hero imagines his corpse lying in his grave:  "...the hoofs of the horses beat, beat into my scalp and brain..."

I was just reading a bit of the poem and discovered an explicit "windflower" connection that Elgar, although he does not quote it, in his knowing and subtle way certainly would have been aware of and, with his love of puzzles and enigmas, surely must have meant to be implicit in the music:

"The fault was mine, the fault was mine"—   
Why am I sitting here so stunn'd and still,   
Plucking the harmless wild-flower on the hill?—   
It is this guilty hand!—   
And there rises ever a passionate cry
From underneath in the darkening land—   
What is it, that has been done?

I'm intrigued that you hear a connection with Sibelius; I'd never considered that myself.  Personally, I find a similarity between the slow movement of this symphony and the Adagio of Bruckner's Seventh Symphony.  Both are expressions of heartbreak, and Elgar's oboe lament parallels Bruckner's solo flute.

Thank you jfdrex! 
It is quite enjoyable to ponder a piece of music that is becoming special in one's mind's eye.

It is interesting that Elgar was so concerned about how the audience responded to his works. Sometimes it seems as if artists could care less. Perhaps he wanted strongly to connect to people (or the human condition) through his music? However, referring to the audience as "stuffed pigs" perhaps negates such an hypothesis?

Lovely quote from Tennyson. I was not aware about Elgar's poetic focal point in the 3rd movement. It seems as if your "windflower" fits very well into the emotional turmoil of the music. Its numerous oscillations in power and jagged edges links well to "the abuse of passion". However, the image of the man plucking the windflower as he contemplates his passion (or a past event) is intriguing. Besides, it makes one want to read more of Tennyson's words.

As you mentioned Bruckner's 7th I can sense that connection as well in the emotional turmoil. Perhaps the common theme we sense (Elgar - Sibelius - Bruckner) is the transformation of an orchestra performing to fragments of "living" music, i.e. the music comes alive? Bruckner also seems to have these cumulative themes that build, dissipate and return in unexpected ways: tidal waves of emotions running through the work.

Peter

[Moonfish]

Great post there, thanks!

And Moonfish, I too have been listening to the 2nd over and over, different performances. Glad you love the Barbirolli! I'll have to revisit him soon!

Thanks, Leo!

Indeed, so many versions. I was not too thrilled hearing Solti's 2nd the other week (but I will return). Barbirolli's rendition was a pleasure to visit!!!!

Peter

[Moonfish]

Very nice response, Moonfish. My feelings about Symphony No. 2 have been well documented on this thread, so I won't reiterate them but let me just give a thumbs up to Barbirolli. I just knew you would would succumb to these magnificent performances. I do love Boult a lot as well. Do give Slatkin's Elgar a listen at some point. I was very surprised by his performances.

Thanks, John! Yes, you have been pushing Barbirolli quite a bit and I know how fond you are of his recording. It seemed for a while that you barked "Barbirolli" and I barked "Boult"!     Now I am curious about your remarks in regards to Slatkin. Is his Elgar drastically different?  There seems literally to be an ocean of different performances of Elgar's symphonies!!!

Peter

[Jo498]

I'd be interested in recommendations for the 3 major chamber pieces: string quartet, piano quintet, violin sonata. The Maggini Q on Naxos couples the first two and they usually got very good reviews for British music (I have their RVW quartet/quintet disc). On hyperion there is the Nash ensemble with sonata + quintet. Any comments on these?

TIA

(The classics for pleasure issues mentioned at the beginning of this thread are oop and not easy to get on the continent.)

[Wanderer]

I was not too thrilled hearing Solti's 2nd the other week (but I will return).

The newer members weren't here to remember, but in ancient GMG discussions I'd voiced my utter dissatisfaction (bordering indignation) with Solti's Elgar. This view hasn't changed. I rarely react so negatively to recordings, because most of the time there are at least some redeeming qualities or understandable points of view that make the interpretative choices legitimate, even if one disagrees with them. In Solti's Elgar I've found nothing worthwhile to warrant such leniency. Sometimes if it sounds bad, it's because it is.

I'd be interested in recommendations for the ... violin sonata.

In my opinion, the best rendition of the superb violin sonata is the Mordkovitch/Milford on Chandos.

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[Elgarian]

In my opinion, the best rendition of the superb violin sonata is the Mordkovitch/Milford on Chandos.

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We had some good discussions about recordings of the chamber music a few years back - and I remember my enthusiasm about that Mordkovitch recording of the violin sonata. You're right - it is a stunning performance. At the time I'd have said my favourite was the one by Hugh Bean, but Mordkovitch seemed to add another dimension. I wrote a comparison of those two recordings at the time which might be helpful:

Here goes. Bean v Mordkovitch. The first minute of the first movement says it all, in a way. Bean is marvellous, full of attack, almost aggressive. But Mordkovitch sounds completely different. Her tone is different, but I can't find words to fit - it's like comparing fine and coarse sandpaper, perhaps. She makes Bean sound as if he's lacking in finesse, more monodimensional in character. Her attack in the first minute is just as powerful as his, but it's like quicksilver, rising and falling in waves, with faster shifts of tone and pace. I get the impression she's actually playing faster than Bean (and checking the timings, I see that indeed she is, by a second or two when completing that first section. Bean is wonderful, but Mordkovitch makes him seem rather plodding by comparison.

This tendency carries on right through into the introduction of the second theme, where she seems to find nuances that Bean misses. For instance, you know how there's a long sustained high note starting at about 1m43s in Bean, and continuing for about 5 seconds? It's a lovely moment, poised somewhere between happiness and pain. Well, when Mordkovitch plays that, she seems to touch some sort of ethereal realm, where the note begins with exquisite delicacy and then fades with equal tenderness at the end. Her playing reminds me of those drawings by Rossetti of Elizabeth Siddal, where the pencil work rises from the page so delicately that you can't tell where the paper/pencil boundary is.

Again, towards the end of the last movement, Bean gives us what I call the spooky trees feeling starting at about 6m15s, then slides into the reappearance of the lovely 'Windflowerish' melody at 6m55s, and it's so very beautiful and moving; but when Mordkovitch plays that I almost get the impression that she's going to come to a halt at the end of the spooky trees, and maybe this time there'll be no reprieve ... then slowly, faintly, the lovely tune appears, like something forgotten and only now remembered. Again, Bean seems monodimensional by comparison. There's a kind of inevitability about where he's going, whereas Mordkovitch is full of uncertainty. Bean gives us plain speaking - beautiful, deeply felt plain speaking, while Mordkovitch is continually hesitant, trembling on the edge, lower lip quivering.

[71 dB]

I'd be interested in recommendations for the 3 major chamber pieces: string quartet, piano quintet, violin sonata. The Maggini Q on Naxos couples the first two and they usually got very good reviews for British music (I have their RVW quartet/quintet disc).

TIA

As mentioned, Mordkovitch/Milford on Chandos for the Violin Sonata. The Naxos disc of the String Quartet and Piano Quintet is a very good choice. 

[Mirror Image]

Thanks, John! Yes, you have been pushing Barbirolli quite a bit and I know how fond you are of his recording. It seemed for a while that you barked "Barbirolli" and I barked "Boult"!     Now I am curious about your remarks in regards to Slatkin. Is his Elgar drastically different?  There seems literally to be an ocean of different performances of Elgar's symphonies!!!

Peter

Hey Peter, yes, I'm quite pushy when it comes to performances I like! I'm glad I have come to admire Boult's Elgar as much as Barbirolli's as both represent two different approaches. Slatkin, on the other hand, seems to find a happy medium from Barbirolli and Boult. Slatkin seems emotionally driven but not without an attention to the inner-workings and dynamics of the music. He also gets some very fine playing from the London Philharmonic with excellent audio quality to boot.

Another question: have you heard Andrew Davis new-ish recordings of Elgar on Signum Classics? I HIGHLY recommend the 2-CD set of Symphonies 1 & 2 and the single release of Enigma Variations. All performed by the Philharmonia Orchestra. Still one of my favorite Symphony No. 2 performances on record.

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[Karl Henning]

We had some good discussions about recordings of the chamber music a few years back - and I remember my enthusiasm about that Mordkovitch recording of the violin sonata. You're right - it is a stunning performance. At the time I'd have said my favourite was the one by Hugh Bean, but Mordkovitch seemed to add another dimension. I wrote a comparison of those two recordings at the time which might be helpful:

I recall, and this is a pleasure to re-read.

[Mirror Image]

I recall, and this is a pleasure to re-read.

+1

[Elgarian]

I can see where you are coming from in your reaction to the third movement.  It is intense (like much of Elgar's music), and has very definite moments of violence.  Elgar himself wrote that this movement represented "the madness that attends the excess or abuse of passion," and cited a passage from Tennyson's poem Maude in which the hero imagines his corpse lying in his grave:  "...the hoofs of the horses beat, beat into my scalp and brain..."

I was just reading a bit of the poem and discovered an explicit "windflower" connection that Elgar, although he does not quote it, in his knowing and subtle way certainly would have been aware of and, with his love of puzzles and enigmas, surely must have meant to be implicit in the music:

"The fault was mine, the fault was mine"—   
Why am I sitting here so stunn'd and still,   
Plucking the harmless wild-flower on the hill?—   
It is this guilty hand!—   
And there rises ever a passionate cry
From underneath in the darkening land—   
What is it, that has been done?

At the risk of being accused of pedantry ... I feel I need to say that I don't think this is quite right. The expression in Tennyson is 'wild-flower' (see above), not windflower. 'Windflower' (Anemone nemorosa) was the (very specific) name that Elgar associated with Alice Stuart Wortley, and I don't think a mere reference to a 'wild-flower' had any particular significance for him in that respect. Point is that 'windfloweriness' has all sort of important connections with some of the music (the violin concerto in particular), but to extend that idea to mere 'wild-floweriness' would muddy the Elgarian waters a good deal.

[jfdrex]

At the risk of being accused of pedantry ... I feel I need to say that I don't think this is quite right. The expression in Tennyson is 'wild-flower' (see above), not windflower. 'Windflower' (Anemone nemorosa) was the (very specific) name that Elgar associated with Alice Stuart Wortley, and I don't think a mere reference to a 'wild-flower' had any particular significance for him in that respect. Point is that 'windfloweriness' has all sort of important connections with some of the music (the violin concerto in particular), but to extend that idea to mere 'wild-floweriness' would muddy the Elgarian waters a good deal.

Ah, of course you're right.   Here's the thing: As I read those lines, my eye saw the word--or my mind read it--as wind-flower.

Uncannily, almost the exact same thing happened to a dear friend of mine some years ago.  We had been exchanging some correspondence about the Elgar Violin Concerto.  Then, one morning, sitting in the front of the upper deck of a London bus on her way to work, she saw a sign that she read, on first glance, as wind flowers.  Only after she had been staring at the sign for a few moments did she realize that what it actually said was window flowers.

Such is the power of Elgarian suggestion!