Elgar's Hillside

[Moonfish]

Errm, is this the Elgar thread or is it mutating into something else...? 

[Mirror Image]

Errm, is this the Elgar thread or is it mutating into something else...? 

Excellent question. I'm not happy with the direction this thread has taken either. Let's get back to Elgar people.

[Christo]

This isn't either, is it?

[71 dB]

Errm, is this the Elgar thread or is it mutating into something else...? 

Enigma Mutations...

[Elgarian]

I have just finished the 19-disc Boult box. Probably the most engrossing single composer-interpreter box I have come across. 3 Alassios -2 VC, 3 VcelloC, 2 Symph 1, 3 symph 2, 2 Falstaffs, 4 Enigmas or is it the other way around ? 

In any case, no single composer compilation is more engrossing that this one, pairing as it does the Bocuse of English chefs in his repertory of choice. Hurrah E.D.U !! Among 1900-1950 composers, only Mahler, RVW, Ravel and Sibelius are worthy of the same praise.

I've been trying to avoid buying this box ("too-many-CDs fatigue syndrome" coupled with some already-owned duplications), but reading these comments and looking at the low price of it I'm thinking maybe I might invest in it after all. Thanks for such a strong recommendation.

That being said, I think I can understand the underlying current running through Beaumarchais' list of epithets. I *did* experience a bit of listening fatigue when listening to the outer movements (esp. the finale) of the 2nd symphony.

That tends to happen to me if I listen in concentrated measure to a lot of works by any single composer - yes, even including Elgar. I abandoned my 'listening to all the symphonies of Haydn' project on the grounds of sheer weariness. Sometimes, despite Der Ring being close to my tippety-top of all my tippety tops, Wagner can seem just too-much-of-what-it-is and becomes impenetrable. So much depends on 'the listener's share', and that's a very variable commodity, from day to day, month to month, and year to year.

[Sergeant Rock]

Errm, is this the Elgar thread or is it mutating into something else...? 

No, it isn't mutating. My question is relevant to the topic we're discussing. I want to better understand Beaumarchais' dislike of the Elgar Symphonies; better understand why he characterizes the symphonies as overblown and unsustainable.

Sarge

[Sergeant Rock]

Well first and foremost, Richard Strauss's Eine Alpensinfonie followed by Gustav Mahler's Symphonies Nos. 5, 6 & 8 but we must not forget Rachmaninoff's symphonies 1 & 2, of which I prefer No.1. I might also add a particularly personal favourite in Saint Saens mighty Symphony No.3 and the Sibelius symphonies Nos. 1,2,5 and 7.

Okay, so it isn't a general dislike of the Late Romantic style that turns you off Elgar. I must say I'm surprised by your list: Elgar 1 overblown in your opinion but not Mahler 8 (a work even many dedicated Mahlerites can't abide) or the infamous Alpensinfonie?

Sarge

[Karl Henning]

Okay, so it isn't a general dislike of the Late Romantic style that turns you off Elgar. I must say I'm surprised by your list: Elgar 1 overblown in your opinion but not Mahler 8 (a work even many dedicated Mahlerites can't abide) or the infamous Alpensinfonie?

Sarge

I'm also mildly surprised at his characterizing the Sibelius Opp. 82 & 105 as Late Romantic symphonies

[Mirror Image]

Okay, so it isn't a general dislike of the Late Romantic style that turns you off Elgar. I must say I'm surprised by your list: Elgar 1 overblown in your opinion but not Mahler 8 (a work even many dedicated Mahlerites can't abide) or the infamous Alpensinfonie?

Sarge

Yes, they're opinion of Elgar's symphonies being 'overblown' contradicts many of their choices from above.

[revdrdave]

I've been following GMG for awhile but this is my first post.

First, a shout-out to Elgarian who, unbeknownst to him at the time, shepherded me through a discovery of the music of Handel.  It's nice to find him--and the rest of you--here on the Elgar thread as I've begun to find my way back to his music.  I've collected classical music for 40+ years, and have had a fair representation of Elgar therein all along, but I never really began listening to his music until recently.  Being an Anglophile, I've long had a love of music from UK composers, especially Vaughan Williams, Moeran, and Finzi, but Elgar, for whatever reason, just didn't click for me.

Well, surprise, surprise... Thanks to two performances of two works, I'm discovering the wonders of Elgar, seemingly for the first time.  The first is the Violin Concerto via a Proms performance on Youtube with Nigel Kennedy and the BBC Concert Orchestra conducted by Paul Daniel.  Wow.  I know Kennedy can be an acquired taste among music lovers but this performance just blows me away (a term I don't use too often).  Over and above the sheer beauty of the tone Kennedy produces and his (to my ears) flawless technique, he communicates a depth and profundity in this piece that I never experienced in the recording I've long had in my collection by Chung and Solti.  I've encountered opinion in the past placing the Elgar concerto in the ranks of those by Beethoven, Brahms, and Sibelius but I never understood that until now.  Extraordinary.

Second is the Piano Quintet performed by Ian Brown and the Sorrel Quartet.  This is a piece by Elgar that I did not know, so I'm in no position to speak to the qualities--or lack thereof--of the performance, but the music itself, again, just blows me away.  For me, the piano quintet as a genre has pretty much been Schumann and Brahms and, occasionally, Shostakovich.  That's expanded now to include Elgar.  The quintet is, at this moment, my favorite of his chamber pieces.

I'm still learning Elgar's music; it's early for me to provide much in the way of specifics about to what and how and why I'm responding in what I'm hearing--that will come with repeated listening.  What I do know is that at this point in my life, Elgar has struck the proverbial chord within me.  This is one of the great gifts of collecting classical music: even after years of listening you can make discoveries that open entirely new vistas of experience.

I'm learning much as I make my way through the 130+ pages of entries in this thread.  My thanks to all of you for the guidance you're providing and I look forward to continuing the conversation.   

[Beaumarchais]

Okay, so it isn't a general dislike of the Late Romantic style that turns you off Elgar. I must say I'm surprised by your list: Elgar 1 overblown in your opinion but not Mahler 8 (a work even many dedicated Mahlerites can't abide) or the infamous Alpensinfonie?

Sarge

I agree Sarge that the so-called Symphony of a Thousand is perhaps more of a challenge for the listener as it's a long way fromthe 1st to the 8th and beyond. Admittedly I heard it only once when a colleague wanted to show off his audio system but I was very impressed with the music. Perhaps I should have included the 2nd instead as I have seen it performed a number of times in concert.
To my mind the Alpine Symphony epitomises late romanticism and has been a personal favourite for years
and here's why:

http://youtu.be/xK7z2NhUrsQ

[Beaumarchais]

I'm also mildly surprised at his characterizing the Sibelius Opp. 82 & 105 as Late Romantic symphonies

As you probably know Karl, Sibelius is generally characterised as a late romantic. The 5th was written in 1915, the same year as the Alpine Symphony and the 7th in 1924. I don't hear a radical departure from his earlier symphonic output.

[TheGSMoeller]

I agree Sarge that the so-called Symphony of a Thousand is perhaps more of a challenge for the listener as it's a long way fromthe 1st to the 8th and beyond. Admittedly I heard it only once when a colleague wanted to show off his audio system but I was very impressed with the music. Perhaps I should have included the 2nd instead as I have seen it performed a number of times in concert.
To my mind the Alpine Symphony epitomises late romanticism and has been a personal favourite for years
and here's why:

http://youtu.be/xK7z2NhUrsQ

Yes!
I know I've posted this clip before, even on Twitter I believe. It truly is some of the most magnificent music, and "On The Summit" is the epitome of that magnificence.
Nice pick, Beaumarchais.

[Beaumarchais]

Yes, they're opinion of Elgar's symphonies being 'overblown' contradicts many of their choices from above.

Well Mirror I'm sorry that once again the subject of the thread has strayed into other territory, I suppose it's an inevitable consequence where comparisons are being made. Regarding the contradiction, I have to say that it lies in the ear of the listener. My views on Elgar and other composers mentioned, and notwithstanding Sir Thomas Beecham, are my own and made in the knowledge that others may disagree.
Incidentally, Delius is where Sir Thomas and I part company as he was the foremost champion of the composer's work and, apart from La Calinda, I don't much care for Delius's music.
Sir Thomas said he was intrigued by it as it was like a wayward woman and he was determined to tame it.
I have never had much time for wayward women and have usually preferred to leave them to it.

[Hiker]

On reflection, it seems that Beecham wasn't the only one to associate Elgar's Symphony No.1 with an imposing slab of architecture. In Greystoke: The Legend of Tarzan, Lord of the Apes (1984), the piece is intimately associated with the family seat of Greystoke (Floors Castle in Scotland). I will always be grateful to the film for acquainting me with the symphony.

[Beaumarchais]

Yes!
I know I've posted this clip before, even on Twitter I believe. It truly is some of the most magnificent music, and "On The Summit" is the epitome of that magnificence.
Nice pick, Beaumarchais.

Thanks, I was astounded when the Berlin Phil. posted the clip on Youtube, because I had heard numerous recordings of the Alpine and never dreamt that anyone would match Karajan let alone surpass him in this work. I and many others pleaded with the orchestra's management to release the whole performance on CD
or at least on Youtube, but for contractural reasons it was only available on subscription from Berlin ; a lengthy and frustrating process.

[Elgarian]

Could someone please explain to me what is meant by 'unsustainable' in the context of Elgar's symphonies?

[North Star]

Could someone please explain to me what is meant by 'unsustainable' in the context of Elgar's symphonies?

Perhaps Beaumarchais has measured their carbon footprint.

[Karl Henning]

I actually find with Elgar something similar to Brahms — I mean compositionally, rather than anything on the musical surface, since the "sound" of the two composers' voices is unmistakably distinct — which is that, while the tenor and (perhaps this word will do) manner of the music suggest the world of Romanticism, and thus a kind of license, even perhaps (at times) of "going on rather a bit," when one examines the scores, there is an economy of design and a directness of purpose which are refreshingly "lean" and Classical.

Well, and what do I mean by this?  That there is a "contradiction" between the construction and the musical "matter"?  No;  but that in the case of both composers, the strength of the work is the overlay of the apparent liberty of the musical essence upon a solid skeleton of watertight (sorry to mix my metaphors) compositional construction.

And it is this understanding of the music which creates probably insurmountable difficulty for me in twigging what one can mean, by suggesting that the larger works are somehow "unsustainable."

[mc ukrneal]

Could someone please explain to me what is meant by 'unsustainable' in the context of Elgar's symphonies?

I second your question. I still can't get my head around what is meant by overblown, how it relates to sustainability, and then the context of the other works that are sustainable (where Elgar is not) and I guess not overblown (which the Elgar apparently is). In all honesty, I simply don't understand the point Beaumarchais is trying to make. I get that he isn't a fan (at least, I think that is what he's saying), but beyond that, I am lost. And it's the terminology that is throwing me I think.

I think the other problem I am having is this terminology is descriptive, but not precise. If I am playing and the conductor says, hey sax player, stop playing so overblown, I wouldn't know how to translate that comment into the sound coming out of the isntrument. The same thing applies to me as a listener. Is it perhaps the nobilimente of the piece, which may differentiate it from others?