Stockhausen's Spaceship

[James]

Where do I look to find the complete Mittwoch? it seems harder to see than Donnestag and Samstag 

There is no box for this one, or Sonntag, you'll have to buy separate editions. For Mittwoch .. Verlag Nos. 51-55, 66. http://www.stockhausencds.com/

For the Helicopter SQ .. there are 2 releases available outside of Stockhausen's record label. A documentary film & a recording (Arditti Vol. 35).

[asin]B00176I94K[/asin]

[snyprrr]

Oktophonie

Just hearing this for the first time. WOW!! Great great stuff, ,... I had no idea. This is the spaciest cool thing ever, like 'Logan's Run', lol,...

I like this like I like Xenakis's 'Persepolis'... but this is SpaceAge whereas that sounds Ancient...

LOL... reminds me of Billy Thorpe's 'Children of the Sun'!!!!!!!



NOW I understand where the 70s came from, lol, oh, I love this stuff!!!!

[James]

Oktophonie

Just hearing this for the first time. WOW!! Great great stuff, ,... I had no idea. This is the spaciest cool thing ever, like 'Logan's Run', lol,...

I like this like I like Xenakis's 'Persepolis'... but this is SpaceAge whereas that sounds Ancient...

LOL... reminds me of Billy Thorpe's 'Children of the Sun'!!!!!!!

NOW I understand where the 70s came from, lol, oh, I love this stuff!!!!

I like this one a lot too, it really works. I just wish I could hear it in octophonic surround-sound as opposed to just the stereo mix of the CD!

[snyprrr]

I like this one a lot too, it really works. I just wish I could hear it in octophonic surround-sound as opposed to just the stereo mix of the CD!

I also listened to the Trinity of 'Refrain', 'Kontakte', and 'Zyklus'.

KONTAKTE- wow, there's another one. Did I never pay attention to this before? Yes, this is great great stuff, the most involved tape+performers work I've ever heard. Babbitt comes in a distant second...

'Refrain' I liked, even though it has a small amount of vocalizing. 'Zyklus' is as good as any solo percussion I've ever heard.



Who do we like here? Koch/Wambach or Mode/Schick, or.....


ASLO- there's a new girl on Decca with some 'Klavierstucke'... Bonelli??... how is she?





and I'm watching Logans Run

[Karl Henning]

and I'm watching Logans Run

That is perfect 

[James]

I also listened to the Trinity of 'Refrain', 'Kontakte', and 'Zyklus'.

KONTAKTE- wow, there's another one. Did I never pay attention to this before? Yes, this is great great stuff, the most involved tape+performers work I've ever heard. Babbitt comes in a distant second...

'Refrain' I liked, even though it has a small amount of vocalizing. 'Zyklus' is as good as any solo percussion I've ever heard.



Who do we like here? Koch/Wambach or Mode/Schick, or.....


ASLO- there's a new girl on Decca with some 'Klavierstucke'... Bonelli??... how is she?





and I'm watching Logans Run

Stockhausen's record label has the absolute best release of Kontakte/Zyklus/Refrain. It's one of the best releases from the label.

http://www.stockhausencds.com/Stockhausen_Edition_CD6.htm

I haven't really listened to that chick on Decca's releases, yet.

[Mandryka]

ASLO- there's a new girl on Decca with some 'Klavierstucke'... Bonelli??... how is she?

Good, in Stockhausen and in Scriabin and in the overlap between the two, she even made me enjoy a Licht Klavierstuck. You will hate it because the pianist has to make voice noises.

(I share your enthusiasm for kontakte by the way. )

[snyprrr]

will hate it because the pianist has to make voice noises.

(I share your enthusiasm for kontakte by the way. )

wwwwhhhhhyyyyyyy??

why why why


Anyhow, I've made peace with that for the time being, if only because... well, I don't know why,... out of all the "extended" techniques in the universe, the one of having the performer... "emote" (Crumb, Stocky,Cage sometimes?, who else?- maybe Holliger is the only one who gets it??)... and it's ALWAYS the same old "wwwwwone.....tttttttttttttttwo......ththtththtthtthrrrrrrrrreeeeeeeeeeeeeee, funf funf funf"

intoning in that "theatrical" style... mines and harlequins ... AAARRRRGGGHH!!!!!!!


I give Xenakis massive amounts of credit for limiting himself... Cage to an extent... Crumb is the worst offender imo... probably a vast array of pieces I have managed to avoid somehow...


I CAN handle the small amounts in 'Refrain',... I can probably handle "recitation" as in that Ferneyhough piece... I can handle some shouting, stampting, a la Hespos (much wacky!!)...

but, as I recall, that KHS piece for 2 Harps was just too much for me.... voices AND harp??, yuuukkk, no thanks...




However, I'd rather hear that than Cage talking for an hour!!!

[snyprrr]

Sirius

did.not.like.

annoying as f***






Pole?, Expo?, Start-Stop?, Kurzellen?, ... all that stuff, reeeally hard to take or am I missing something?... Solo?,

Seriously everybody, including James, I NEED to know your LEAST FAV KHS... I have a feeling everyone will pick the same stuff...

[Karl Henning]

wwwwhhhhhyyyyyyy??

why why why

One word:  Stockhausen

[James]

I CAN handle the small amounts in 'Refrain',...

If you can handle Refrain than you can handle the Light Piano Pieces very easily - as it is not much different, it blends. The music dominates and is very much in the foreground, is heard above all.

http://arts.mit.edu/artists/simon-smith/#public-events

[James]

Sirius

did.not.like.

annoying as f***

Pole?, Expo?, Start-Stop?, Kurzellen?, ... all that stuff, reeeally hard to take or am I missing something?... Solo?,

Seriously everybody, including James, I NEED to know your LEAST FAV KHS... I have a feeling everyone will pick the same stuff...

Quick answer > Like most composers, I have my favorites pieces of music, and that is usually a small percent of the whole catalog.

More wind ...

Stockhausen was the real deal and I appreciate and have learned a great deal from his efforts even if I don't particularly care for most of it.

I don't mind Sirius and it layers, fractals, it's not a favorite - it's too long. Light & playful, but heavy. Loaded with counterpoint which I like.

Most of the stuff from the 60s & 70s I can live without. All that improvised/intuitive bullshit, 'process' horseshit, first steps into theater - dismal musical results.

I love the ambitiousness of LIGHT, he's really going for it .. but it's too much and too long. A good handful of really strong highlights.

Klang, again, pretty neat, some highlights .. but I could live without most of it.

[nathanb]

I think if I was absolutely forced to pick a work I love the least, it would probably be the Indianerlieder, but I can't really think of a Stockhausen work I come even close to disliking.

I will say, just to humor you, that, in spite of my love, Freitag is exhausting in one sitting.

[Mandryka]

Stockhausen's record label has the absolute best release of Kontakte/Zyklus/Refrain. It's one of the best releases from the label.

http://www.stockhausencds.com/Stockhausen_Edition_CD6.htm

I haven't really listened to that chick on Decca's releases, yet.

Who's playing on that CD?

[Mandryka]

Who do we like here? Koch/Wambach or Mode/Schick, or.....

Koch/Wambach

[snyprrr]

Quick answer > Like most composers, I have my favorites pieces of music, and that is usually a small percent of the whole catalog.

More wind ...

Stockhausen was the real deal and I appreciate and have learned a great deal from his efforts even if I don't particularly care for most of it.

I don't mind Sirius and it layers, fractals, it's not a favorite - it's too long. Light & playful, but heavy. Loaded with counterpoint which I like.

Most of the stuff from the 60s & 70s I can live without. All that improvised/intuitive bullshit, 'process' horseshit, first steps into theater - dismal musical results.

I love the ambitiousness of LIGHT, he's really going for it .. but it's too much and too long. A good handful of really strong highlights.

Klang, again, pretty neat, some highlights .. but I could live without most of it.

Sounds perfectly reasoned

Now that I've "accidentally" followed Cage with KHS, things are expanding in my mind- I find 'Kontakte' loads more impressive than Cage, and though I enjoy the randomness of 'Music of Changes' (just tone for yone's sake), the 'Klavierstucke', though sometimes similar "sounding" in passages, always offers up a scintillating arpeggio or flourish that simply CAN'T EXIST in Cage's system.

And I haven't heard anything as complex as, what is it?, 'Carre' or 'Hymnen', or his most multi-media stuff there, from Cage, even though, I assumed that he would have a work like that,... buuut, no, it was KHS who is the REAL Cage and Cage who is the "media darling"?

No, perhaps they BOTH equal ONE? Can't have one without the other? But they do seem like two different manifestations of the same.basic."thing".

That "thing",... same with Scelsi?... I call it The Luciferian Ideal Music... KHS "using the light"...Cage "going in blind"...


I'm sure I don't have to go through this, isn't this what we have ingrained from these few... the Onesness?? (cue ominous Jerry Goldsmith score)...

wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wha wha wha wha wha wha wha wha wha

rrrRRrRrrrrrrRrrooOOO0000oOooo000ooooooooooooooooooo                   oooooooooo000Ooo)00O0)o00MMMMmmmm

zzzzZzzzzzzzzzzzzZzZzzzzzzzzZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZzZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZzz

BRAK                                BRAKBRAK                    BRAK     BRAKKK                 BRAK              BRAKBRAK      BRAKKK

---___-------_-_--__-----___---_-_-_-__-----___--__----__-_-_-_-_-_--------_____--__-_-_-_---_------_-----_-_-----______-_____

unununununununununununununununununununununununununununununununununununununununununununununununununu


I'm calling it 'Composition No.12'...crotchet 15...

[James]

Sounds perfectly reasoned

Now that I've "accidentally" followed Cage with KHS, things are expanding in my mind- I find 'Kontakte' loads more impressive than Cage, and though I enjoy the randomness of 'Music of Changes' (just tone for yone's sake), the 'Klavierstucke', though sometimes similar "sounding" in passages, always offers up a scintillating arpeggio or flourish that simply CAN'T EXIST in Cage's system.

And I haven't heard anything as complex as, what is it?, 'Carre' or 'Hymnen', or his most multi-media stuff there, from Cage, even though, I assumed that he would have a work like that,... buuut, no, it was KHS who is the REAL Cage and Cage who is the "media darling"?

No, perhaps they BOTH equal ONE? Can't have one without the other? But they do seem like two different manifestations of the same.basic."thing".

That "thing",... same with Scelsi?... I call it The Luciferian Ideal Music... KHS "using the light"...Cage "going in blind"...


I'm sure I don't have to go through this, isn't this what we have ingrained from these few... the Onesness?? (cue ominous Jerry Goldsmith score)...

wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wha wha wha wha wha wha wha wha wha

rrrRRrRrrrrrrRrrooOOO0000oOooo000ooooooooooooooooooo                   oooooooooo000Ooo)00O0)o00MMMMmmmm

zzzzZzzzzzzzzzzzzZzZzzzzzzzzZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZzZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZzz

BRAK                                BRAKBRAK                    BRAK     BRAKKK                 BRAK              BRAKBRAK      BRAKKK

---___-------_-_--__-----___---_-_-_-__-----___--__----__-_-_-_-_-_--------_____--__-_-_-_---_------_-----_-_-----______-_____

unununununununununununununununununununununununununununununununununununununununununununununununununu


I'm calling it 'Composition No.12'...crotchet 15...

Stockhausen was highly & totally aware of what he was doing - he had control of what he was writing and hearing. He really embraced technology and excelled there, on a truly deep level (not just playing around) it's all well documented, in the works and in the books. There is a high level of abstraction in his work, but in a controlled sense, a highly composed and thought-out sense. He's not dicking around and leaving musical choices to 'chance', not even the 'timbre', 'tone' or the 'sound' of it. He's really analyzing the flesh of things and exploring to get desired results. Even his intuitive & process things (aka 'ensemble improvisation') provide direction and he's expecting 'music', though his control was handed over more and more to the musicians; he didn't like what they gave him, but at least he explored that possibility. Sure, he had extreme ideas that would push things to the limit, all musical parameters, even from a performance perspective, setting up major challenges, even logistically - as many of his operas do, for instance; even things like Gruppen, Carre etc. Yet, he had a deep, rigorous & refined technique, huge ears. A real sense of taking material (even ordinary 'sounds' from the real world) and integrating/developing/using them up in an organic way as musical material that makes sense. He was a polyphonic composer & thinker. There is a real inner life and coherence to his music, not just 'sound' itself, as is. New forms, with a high degree of structural & rational musical thinking. It's not random, or about making a 'hip' sound and stopping whenever. His pieces are tightly constructed, the totality of it. In his formative years, he was fascinated by certain ideas that Cage was borrowing & importing from European Dada, Zen culture ..  and these were disseminated and explored by young Stockhausen, Boulez & others at the time, but within their own language and rules. They all evolved quite differently.

[nathanb]

Now that I've "accidentally" followed Cage with KHS, things are expanding in my mind- I find 'Kontakte' loads more impressive than Cage, and though I enjoy the randomness of 'Music of Changes' (just tone for yone's sake), the 'Klavierstucke', though sometimes similar "sounding" in passages, always offers up a scintillating arpeggio or flourish that simply CAN'T EXIST in Cage's system.

I just want to point out that, while you are technically correct that various types of fluid gestures won't be found in any music generated from Cage's system, it should not be assumed that such gestures can't be found in any aleatoric/indeterminate music.

When I personally started experimenting with chance (one of my first attempts at an avant-garde experiment was, in fact, music determined by a series of dice - musical Yahtzee, essentially), this was one of my first stumbling blocks. You could generate music note by note and chord by chord, but it tended to be very pointillistic, not unlike the Etudes Australes.

The solution lies in what you treat as your musical parameters (and therefore, what you treat as "subject to chance"). I found that one possible solution was to be found in Stockhausen's superformula. The fact that he treated the formula in a ~serial fashion was secondary to what parameters he actually involved in the formula. One of the most special things about Stockhausen's formula composition period is that he began to think outside the box in terms of musical parameters. By assigning value not only to pitch, duration, dynamics, etc but also to musical "gestures" like tremolo, arpeggio, trill, glissando, etc, he opened up new avenues by which "music by the numbers" could sound more fluid and musical than, for instance, Boulez's Structures or the most formulaic Babbitt.

I believe it is very possible to create indeterminate music with the same sort of musicality, but alas, Cage really wasn't even interested in Western musicality. I've got some sketches that assign different types of musical flourishes and whatnot to chance values.

Sorry if this reads as nonsensical. I had a really weird night.

[James]

One of the most special things about Stockhausen's formula composition ..

In that it re-instated the importance of melody within his music. A formula is a carefully crafted melody, the super-formula is 3 carefully crafted melodies in counterpoint. He wanted the melody (or formula) to be all pervasive within the composition. He would use the melody as the backbone or seed from which all music would proliferate from. Including form. LIGHT is scary this way, truly terrifying .. because on the macro & micro levels of it, it's 29 hours, the melodies DNA is to be found, it's virtually everywhere. So there is sense of recognition as you become more and more familiar with it as a listener. The more and more he composed this way, the more and more his music became lyrical and beautiful. Less aperiodic. Even the most angular passages or progressions can be sung, this was always the case, but with the operas he consciously made sure of it even more so than ever before.

[snyprrr]

I just want to point out that, while you are technically correct that various types of fluid gestures won't be found in any music generated from Cage's system, it should not be assumed that such gestures can't be found in any aleatoric/indeterminate music.

When I personally started experimenting with chance (one of my first attempts at an avant-garde experiment was, in fact, music determined by a series of dice - musical Yahtzee, essentially), this was one of my first stumbling blocks. You could generate music note by note and chord by chord, but it tended to be very pointillistic, not unlike the Etudes Australes.

The solution lies in what you treat as your musical parameters (and therefore, what you treat as "subject to chance"). I found that one possible solution was to be found in Stockhausen's superformula. The fact that he treated the formula in a ~serial fashion was secondary to what parameters he actually involved in the formula. One of the most special things about Stockhausen's formula composition period is that he began to think outside the box in terms of musical parameters. By assigning value not only to pitch, duration, dynamics, etc but also to musical "gestures" like tremolo, arpeggio, trill, glissando, etc, he opened up new avenues by which "music by the numbers" could sound more fluid and musical than, for instance, Boulez's Structures or the most formulaic Babbitt.

I believe it is very possible to create indeterminate music with the same sort of musicality, but alas, Cage really wasn't even interested in Western musicality. I've got some sketches that assign different types of musical flourishes and whatnot to chance values.

Sorry if this reads as nonsensical. I had a really weird night.

made sense

In that it re-instated the importance of melody within his music. A formula is a carefully crafted melody, the super-formula is 3 carefully crafted melodies in counterpoint. He wanted the melody (or formula) to be all pervasive within the composition. He would use the melody as the backbone or seed from which all music would proliferate from. Including form. LIGHT is scary this way, truly terrifying .. because on the macro & micro levels of it, it's 29 hours, the melodies DNA is to be found, it's virtually everywhere. So there is sense of recognition as you become more and more familiar with it as a listener. The more and more he composed this way, the more and more his music became lyrical and beautiful. Less aperiodic. Even the most angular passages or progressions can be sung, this was always the case, but with the operas he consciously made sure of it even more so than ever before.

mandelbrot?




Feldman made a point about WHAT his "materials" actually were... "know thy materials", in a way...




Frankly, at this point in history, any Composer who writes something, but then is not concerned about lighting, what the performers should wear, etc,... how the audience will hear it (any Composer should KNOW at this point how an audience will react- there's only so many ways to start a piece (and so on)).

One thing I can't stand about YT videos of live Classical Music (done by any random performer at home/school/auditorium) is how the performers are wearing shit clothes, all mismatched, and with one another, and the lighting is cafeteria green,... with an "exit" sign in the background, and here they are playing Webern or something, and they just look like a bunch of US slobs.

I know that professional ensembles have got the tip, and dress to the "9s"... witness all the jet set String Quartets that wear expensive suits a la Weiland... make up next?


KHS doesn't come off as a total Scriabin-synthesia(?) type, but she surely injects every stratum into his end performance. Did he believe that 777Hz is the same as a light wave pulsing at 777???


Again, watching 'Logan's Run' the other night isn't helping be clear here... you guys are doing much better- I'm really enlightened by the tone of the conversation lately!!




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