Singing Question

[dtwilbanks]

So, can anyone who can carry a tune become a "serious" music performer if they get the proper training? Do you ever hear a pop singer and think "man, if only they'd gotten more training"? Yeah, naive questions maybe, but I'm curious.

[Tsaraslondon]

So, can anyone who can carry a tune become a "serious" music performer if they get the proper training? Do you ever hear a pop singer and think "man, if only they'd gotten more training"? Yeah, naive questions maybe, but I'm curious.

Caballe stated that Freddie Mercury could have had a career in opera, if he'd trained his voice differently. I've no doubt that's true. He did have a remarkable voice. But it's certainly not true of most pop singers. I doubt Madonna could ever have made a classical singer, no matter how much training she had. I'm not Madonna bashing, by the way. I actually like Madonna.

[dtwilbanks]

Caballe stated that Freddie Mercury could have had a career in opera, if he'd trained his voice differently. I've no doubt that's true. He did have a remarkable voice. But it's certainly not true of most pop singers. I doubt Madonna could ever have made a classical singer, no matter how much training she had. I'm not Madonna bashing, by the way. I actually like Madonna.

Thanks.

Yeah, Freddie Mercury came to mind right away. So did Rob Halford; I wonder about him.

[Larry Rinkel]

So, can anyone who can carry a tune become a "serious" music performer if they get the proper training? Do you ever hear a pop singer and think "man, if only they'd gotten more training"? Yeah, naive questions maybe, but I'm curious.

The short answer is, what kind of training are we talking about? Carrying a tune is only part of "serious" music making. (And we all know what "serious" music means, right?) There are other aspects of singing - phrasing, projection, diction, a sense of the style appropriate to each composer - that need to be part of that training. It's rare to find performers who are equally at home in the popular and the classical worlds.

[dtwilbanks]

It's rare to find performers who are equally at home in the popular and the classical worlds.

That reminds of when Aretha Franklin stepped in for Pavarotti when he was supposed to sing something-or-other on a music awards show(?). I guess she did more than a passable job. She sure impressed a lot of people in the audience anyway.

[Tsaraslondon]

The short answer is, what kind of training are we talking about? Carrying a tune is only part of "serious" music making. (And we all know what "serious" music means, right?) There are other aspects of singing - phrasing, projection, diction, a sense of the style appropriate to each composer - that need to be part of that training. It's rare to find performers who are equally at home in the popular and the classical worlds.

I took the question to mean, if a singer had followed a different course. I don't think it is possible to do both at the same time. Nana Mouskouri started training at the Athens Conseravtory, but was moonlighting in tavernas whilst a student. She was told she had to make a choice - a classical career or a popular one. She chose the latter, and the rest, as they say, is history. Had Freddie Mercury gone to the Royal College of Music, or Guildhall and trained as a classical singer instead, maybe he would have had a completely different career - though probably not as lucrative a one.

[Larry Rinkel]

I took the question to mean, if a singer had followed a different course. I don't think it is possible to do both at the same time. Nana Mouskouri started training at the Athens Conseravtory, but was moonlighting in tavernas whilst a student. She was told she had to make a choice - a classical career or a popular one. She chose the latter, and the rest, as they say, is history. Had Freddie Mercury gone to the Royal College of Music, or Guildhall and trained as a classical singer instead, maybe he would have had a completely different career - though probably not as lucrative a one.

Unfortunately Mr. Wilbanks has left us for unknown reasons, so we won't know what he meant by his question.

[Renfield]

Unfortunately Mr. Wilbanks has left us for unknown reasons, so we won't know what he meant by his question.

Call me naive, but I've still to understand why anyone and everyone, not only leaving the forum but also just "taking a break" from it, "must" un-register. If people around the internet did that for every forum they stopped frequenting, it'd be the only thing many people did all day, so to speak...

Of course, I do understand the principle behind the action. But really, is it all that necessary?

[Anne]

Call me naive, but I've still to understand why anyone and everyone, not only leaving the forum but also just "taking a break" from it, "must" un-register. If people around the internet did that for every forum they stopped frequenting, it'd be the only thing many people did all day, so to speak...

Of course, I do understand the principle behind the action. But really, is it all that necessary?

I would say, "Yes!  I appreciate knowing if someone is leaving."  Why are they not here?  Could have been a car accident etc., etc. heart attack, and so on.  Also despite our best intentions (this is a joke), we just happened to learn to like the bloke!     

[Renfield]

I would say, "Yes!  I appreciate knowing if someone is leaving."  Why are they not here?  Could have been a car accident etc., etc. heart attack, and so on.

True enough. But the same could be accomplished by a post, or a PM. Why go through the motions of actually deleting an account you might later find new use for? Unless the car accident, heart attack, etc. scenario plays out, of course. In which case you probably don't have the time to un-register, anyway...

Regardless, this is probably me showing my utilitarian side. I don't mean to offend, over this.

[locrian]

Unfortunately Mr. Wilbanks has left us for unknown reasons, so we won't know what he meant by his question.

Mr. Wilbanks left in a fit of digust when he found out some of his posts were deleted without his knowledge. I hear he's back under a different name. 

[Anne]

True enough. But the same could be accomplished by a post, or a PM. Why go through the motions of actually deleting an account you might later find new use for? Unless the car accident, heart attack, etc. scenario plays out, of course. In which case you probably don't have the time to un-register, anyway...

Regardless, this is probably me showing my utilitarian side. I don't mean to offend, over this.

Renfeld, I hope you will accept my apology.  I see now that we were talking about 2 different things.  You were talking about reregistering and saying it was unnecessary.  I agree with that.  I was talking about letting people know someone is leaving the BB for a while.  Thanks for being so kind.

[Renfield]

Renfeld, I hope you will accept my apology.  I see now that we were talking about 2 different things.  You were talking about reregistering and saying it was unnecessary.  I agree with that.  I was talking about letting people know someone is leaving the BB for a while.  Thanks for being so kind.

There is nothing to apologise for, Anne. Even more so, thank you for being so considerate.

[Xenophanes]

So, can anyone who can carry a tune become a "serious" music performer if they get the proper training? Do you ever hear a pop singer and think "man, if only they'd gotten more training"? Yeah, naive questions maybe, but I'm curious.

Interesting question.  And first off, I must say I don't really know the answer.

The only extended discussion I have seen is in an old 1960 Dover book, On Studying Singing, by Sergius Kagen, who I think taught at Juilliard.

http://www.amazon.com/Studying-Singing-Sergius-Kagen/dp/048620622X/ref=sr_1_1/104-7564307-3333512?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1192381583&sr=1-1

He does believe that almost anyone can learn to sing better.  However, to become a professional, well, there is a lot of competition, and not everyone is up to it anymore than many can do championship running for speed, professional baseball, hockey, basketball, weightlifting, etc.  My own opinion is that, yes, singing is in great part a physical sport, though not a particularly aerobic one.

Kagen sets out a number of things he believes required to be a professional singer. He notes he has had many serious vocal students who simply don't have the voice for professional singing.

1) A musical ear, that is one can imagine the note and reproduce it by singing, humming, whistling, etc. 

Now, I believe this can be trained at least to some degree, as I have heard a voice teacher in a workshop describe doing it for some people who thought they could not carry a tune.

2) A good natural voice. Kagen does recognize that "natural" is a highly ambiguous term. He thinks that at least the person should be capable of producing pleasant sounds before vocal training. He also suggests the voice must be capable of being loud enough for practical purposes.  There are some good singers who make excellent recordings who seem to have smallish voices, but they probably don't sing Turandot in an opera house.

Some singers more or less specialize in singing classical songs and oratorios, too, and the demands for a big voice are not so great.

3) Able to sustain a note without trembling.  Some tremolos seem to be curable, others persist through all efforts to ameliorate them.

4) Good health and good appearance are helpful. There are certain conditions such as heart disease, chronic asthma (medicine has advanced since 1960), repiratory irritations, and so on which will effect vocal reproduction. As he notes, "a professional singer performs not on days which suit him, but on whatever date he happens to be engaged to perform."

Appearance has become more important in the age of mass media but some have overcome various handicaps to pursue a professional career.

As well, he mentions all sorts of personal factors which may interfere with having a professional career. But no matter what the talent or desire, Kagen thinks his first two requirements are essential for a singing career.

Someone mentioned Nana Mouskouri.  The late record collector and journalist, Clyde Gilmour (Gilmour's Albums was on the CBC for many years), once mentioned Nana's vocal chords where flawed, and this is mentioned in the Wikipedia article, and that this would have prevented her from having an operatic career. However, evidently she was thrown out of the conservatory for her interest in jazz.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nana_Mouskouri

I am not sure whether Sarah Brightman could be a great opera singer, though she can certainly sing operatic arias, but like Mouskouri, she has carved out a niche for herself which she fills very well.

I wonder how Paul Potts is doing . . .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Potts

I listened to the samples of Paul Potts' CD on Amazon and was not favorably impressed.  His vocal performance is so on the edge, I think the excitement comes from hoping, pulling for him, to actually get through the song!  Maybe he will get a lot better, maybe not, but my guess is he won't get beyond amateur and local opera performances.

[Lethevich]

I wonder how Paul Potts is doing . . .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Potts

I listened to the samples of Paul Potts' CD on Amazon and was not favorably impressed.  His vocal performance is so on the edge, I think the excitement comes from hoping, pulling for him, to actually get through the song!  Maybe he will get a lot better, maybe not, but my guess is he won't get beyond amateur and local opera performances.

"Paul Potts
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not to be confused with Pol Pot."

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