Author Topic: Bach: Mass in B minor  (Read 63128 times)

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Offline Maciek

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Re: Bach: Mass in B minor
« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2007, 02:52:36 AM »
OK, you actually made me put the CD on. :o I can hear the sound you mean but it doesn't sound like noise to me - just the ordinary stuff coming from woodwinds (I think it's called "keywork" in English?).

Gardiner is HIP which usually means faster tempos. Klemperer is not HIP. But I don't have his recording.

I think we discussed Bach's B Minor Mass recordings on this new GMG somewhere. Look for a Bach thread or something - don't remember where it was exactly...

Offline Maciek

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Re: Bach: Mass in B minor
« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2007, 02:59:05 AM »
Here's the thread I had in mind:
Bach B Minor Mass on EMI Classics

Don Giovanni

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Re: Bach: Mass in B minor
« Reply #22 on: May 01, 2007, 03:03:19 AM »
OK, you actually made me put the CD on. :o I can hear the sound you mean but it doesn't sound like noise to me - just the ordinary stuff coming from woodwinds (I think it's called "keywork" in English?).

The noises seem to occur even without the woodwinds and out of time with the music?

Online Sergeant Rock

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Re: Bach: Mass in B minor
« Reply #23 on: May 01, 2007, 03:07:17 AM »
Exactly! Thank you dB. I can't think what instrument it is.

I hear it too. It doesn't sound like any of the usual mechanical noises instruments make. As dB noticed, it also isn't localized. Sometimes it comes from one side, sometimes the middle, sometimes the left. I can't figure it out. It's far more annoying through headphones than speakers though...maybe that's why I never noticed it until you pointed it out. After the first track I think it goes away. I sampled four more tracks and didn't hear anything, not to the extent of the first track anyway.

I can't help you with a recommendation for another Mass. I only have two: Gardiner and Klemperer...and you probably won't like old skool Klemp ;D

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
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Offline Maciek

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Re: Bach: Mass in B minor
« Reply #24 on: May 01, 2007, 03:08:59 AM »
The noises seem to occur even without the woodwinds and out of time with the music?

I'm not sure about that. But it doesn't have to be the people who are actually playing at the given moment - they may be cleaning their instruments etc.

Of course, I'm no woodwind expert. I may be all wrong about this. It doesn't bother me anyway because I hardly ever listen to this recording. ;D

Don Giovanni

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Re: Bach: Mass in B minor
« Reply #25 on: May 01, 2007, 03:17:31 AM »
I hear it too. It doesn't sound like any of the usual mechanical noises instruments make. As dB noticed, it also isn't localized. Sometimes it comes from one side, sometimes the middle, sometimes the left. I can't figure it out. It's far more annoying through headphones than speakers though...maybe that's why I never noticed it until you pointed it out. After the first track I think it goes away. I sampled four more tracks and didn't hear anything, not to the extent of the first track anyway.

I can't help you with a recommendation for another Mass. I only have two: Gardiner and Klemperer...and you probably won't like old skool Klemp ;D

Sarge

Sarge, that's why I normally notice sounds that are very difficult to hear: I always listen through headphones. I'm presently trying to decide whether or not to sample some other recordings or stick with the Gardiner. My pockets aren't as deep as some people's at the moment, so I'd rather have a recording that I'm completely happy with.

 ;D Why wouldn't I like Klemperer's?

Harry Collier

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Re: Bach: Mass in B minor
« Reply #26 on: May 01, 2007, 03:36:57 AM »
How good is Klemperer's recording? From clips that I've heard he seems to take it slowly (unlike Gardiner). What would be a good recording for me to buy?

Well, this is not Formula One, so speed isn't everything. Klemperer brings a certain nobility and gravitas to this music. I have many recordings of the Mass (including Rifkin, Karajan, Klemperer, Herreweghe, Gardiner, Jacobs). Klemperer is the most recent acquisition and, to my surprise, we are settling in very happily together. The opening Kyrie does sound slow after the rest of the field. But after a few listenings you get used to it, and you start admiring the nobility of the performance and the incredible clarity of the fugal and counterpoint choral. Klemperer used a choir of 60; small for those days. As with many performances, you just have to pick performers on track record, and then digest the performance to see if it fits in with your ideas and tastes.

Don Giovanni

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Re: Bach: Mass in B minor
« Reply #27 on: May 01, 2007, 03:41:06 AM »
Thanks a lot. That's helped me quite a bit. I think I might put off buying another recording for a while I want to get Bach's Violin Sonatas and Partitas before. I'll use your advice to do some more research.

Don Giovanni

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Re: Bach: Mass in B minor
« Reply #28 on: May 01, 2007, 08:57:02 AM »
Sarge, why do you think I won't like the Klemperer?  :)

Don

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Re: Bach: Mass in B minor
« Reply #29 on: May 01, 2007, 10:54:43 AM »
The noises seem to occur even without the woodwinds and out of time with the music?

Took out the Gardiner set and played it on my most revealing system with headphones:

Low volume - no noises.
moderate volume - slight noise.
high volume - more noticeable but doesn't hamper my enjoyment in the least.  Mostly mechanical sounds.

Online Sergeant Rock

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Re: Bach: Mass in B minor
« Reply #30 on: May 02, 2007, 04:48:35 AM »
Sarge, why do you think I won't like the Klemperer?  :)

I was being mostly facetious. In fact I don't know you well enough to know what you might like or dislike. On this forum, though, people tend to prefer HIP baroque and I assumed you did too. The main problem people have with Klemperer are his tempos which can sound, when heard superficially or compared directly to someone like Gardiner, leaden (they aren't though: Klemperer articulates rhythms so precisely and clearly you always have a sense his Bach is moving forward decisively). I enjoy slow speeds because they let me hear and relish the inner workings of a piece so clearly. They give my old brain plenty of time to sort things out ;D

Harry Collier pointed out one irony about Klemperer's Bach. Once upon a time his Bach was considered HIP. He was one of the first, maybe the first, twentieth-century conductor to perform Bach in a manner closer to the original. At a time when most performances of Bach were still based on the nineteenth century tradition of over-romanticizing the music, Klemp scaled back his forces and conducted Bach (and other baroque masters) in a strong, objective style based on fidelity to the score. He took a lot of critical hits for that and when he finally had the opportunity to record Bach after the war, he chose to use larger groups than he did pre-war. Nobody is quite sure why: pressure from his producer and label? sensitivity to critics? Even so, as Harry pointed out, his chorus was still smaller than the norm and certainly the clarity of his Bach is as HIP as anyone's.

Sarge
« Last Edit: May 02, 2007, 07:15:55 AM by Sergeant Rock »
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

dtwilbanks

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Re: Bach: Mass in B minor
« Reply #31 on: May 02, 2007, 04:54:06 AM »
I'm glad people are mentioning Leonhardt. The first I heard and still the best (out of the handful I've heard since).

Harry Collier

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Re: Bach: Mass in B minor
« Reply #32 on: May 02, 2007, 09:48:03 AM »
as Harry pointed out, his chorus was still smaller than the norm and certainly the clarity of his Bach is as HIP as anyone's.

Klemperer had to wait until Walter Legge went from EMI in order to be allowed to record the Mass. Legge wouldn't agree to it unless Klemperer used the full Philharmonia Chorus and Klemperer refused, so the project was shelved.

Offline Coopmv

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Re: Bach: Mass in B minor
« Reply #33 on: February 06, 2009, 05:52:02 PM »
I've recently discovered this ancient CD, which is giving me a lot of pleasure, especially the young Schwarzkopf singing Jauchzet Gott in allen Landen.

Highly recommended if you're not allergic.

I bought this 2-CD set late last year.  The duet in the last movement is absolutely the most beautiful singing I have ever heard.  While I know the soprano was definitely sung by Elisabeth Schwarzkopf, I am not completely sure if the alto was sung by Kathleen Ferrier or Morga Hogggen. 


Offline knight66

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Re: Bach: Mass in B minor
« Reply #34 on: February 08, 2009, 07:31:44 AM »
I bought this 2-CD set late last year.  The duet in the last movement is absolutely the most beautiful singing I have ever heard.  While I know the soprano was definitely sung by Elisabeth Schwarzkopf, I am not completely sure if the alto was sung by Kathleen Ferrier or Morga Hogggen. 



If you are referring to the aria that forms part of the full performance; it was Hoffgen, if from the rehearsal extracts, it was Ferrier. The extracts are very special.

That B Minor Mass shows Karajan in lean and muscular mood, he energises his way through the piece. The much later St Matthew you admire, is ponderous and overblown. Can you hear the differences in his approach on these two recordings?

Mike
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Offline Coopmv

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Re: Bach: Mass in B minor
« Reply #35 on: February 08, 2009, 07:54:05 AM »
If you are referring to the aria that forms part of the full performance; it was Hoffgen, if from the rehearsal extracts, it was Ferrier. The extracts are very special.

That B Minor Mass shows Karajan in lean and muscular mood, he energises his way through the piece. The much later St Matthew you admire, is ponderous and overblown. Can you hear the differences in his approach on these two recordings?

Mike

Absolutely.  It is for the same reason I do not like Karajan's Beethoven Symphonies Cycles from the 70's.  I do plan on getting the following St Matthew Passion ...

« Last Edit: February 08, 2009, 12:15:24 PM by Que »

Offline knight66

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Re: Bach: Mass in B minor
« Reply #36 on: February 08, 2009, 08:02:38 AM »
Oh.....that looks interesting. I wonder if Karajan is still in B Minor pixie mode for the St M?

I am listening to his 1973 re-recording...just got to the 'Geduld'. EEK! Grisly stuff.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

Offline Coopmv

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Re: Bach: Mass in B minor
« Reply #37 on: February 08, 2009, 08:09:13 AM »
Oh.....that looks interesting. I wonder if Karajan is still in B Minor pixie mode for the St M?

I am listening to his 1973 re-recording...just got to the 'Geduld'. EEK! Grisly stuff.

Mike

The only reservation I have is the label, as I know next to nothing about Andante.  This recording was made over the same period, i.e. early 1950's and with no less than the same ensemble, the Vienna Symphony.

Offline Marc

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Re: Bach: Mass in B minor
« Reply #38 on: February 08, 2009, 01:02:19 PM »
Personally I wouldn't touch a Von Karajan Matthäus, but that is another matter! 8)

What about a Karajan B minor Mass? :D
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Offline Coopmv

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Re: Bach: Mass in B minor
« Reply #39 on: February 08, 2009, 01:09:46 PM »
What about a Karajan B minor Mass? :D

The Mass in B minor recording by Karajan with the Vienna Symphony around 1950 is great stuff ...