The Historically Informed Performances (HIP) debate

[Florestan]

I'd like to see that quote.

I know exactly who said that and I can certainly look for it, but besides taking a lot of time it would mean starting another flame war on the same topic and it's the last thing I want/we need. Just trust me please that I didn't make it up and let's leave the matter at that.

It's no abomination, but a piano is not a different version of a harpsichord. They have very little in common besides that layout of the keyboard. It seems to me that playing harpsichord music on a piano is a transcription, like playing trumpet music on a clarinet.

As far as I know, transcription implies perforce at least altering some notes in order to make them playable on the other instrument, while the score is the same for both the harpischord and the piano (it's been recently discussed that Beethoven's early sonatas were advertised by publishers as "for harpsichord or pianoforte").

I agree, though, that harpsichords and pianos have very little in common. To my ears the harpsichord is much closer to the guitar. Also to my ears, music written specifically for harpsichord sounds better on piano but music written specifically for piano sounds worse on harpsichord. Of course, other people at complete liberty to listen to whatever instrument they prefer.

[Mandryka]

Well I think that modern piano players' failure to make any sense of AoF suggests that their world isn't ready yet for complex counterpoint. It may be a question of culture more than instrument.

In the case of other baroque keyboard music, I can't think off hand of a single case where a  modern piano player has done anything interesting. The best - let's say Peter Hill and Andrea Bachetti - just produce something unobjectionable really. Contrast the earth shattering work of harpsichordists like Leonhardt and Rübsam.  Again, I don't think it's necessarily the instrument, it's the pianistic tradition - a tradition which has more to do with Chopin and Liszt and Debussy than it has to do with any earlier musical styles  - - acting like a shackle.

[Pohjolas Daughter]

Judging by the frequent polemics here on GMG, running from mild to vitriolic, I'd say it rather disunites them. 

Only if one tries! 

PD

[Florestan]

modern piano players' failure to make any sense of AoF

There are many conflicting views on the AoF within the HIP camp itself. Who is right and who is wrong?

I don't think it's necessarily the instrument, it's the pianistic tradition - a tradition which has more to do with Chopin and Liszt and Debussy than it has to do with any earlier musical styles  - - acting like a shackle.

Well, it's precisely Chopin, Liszt, Moscheles, Mendelssohn, Rubinstein, von Buelow and other luminaries of the piano who rescued Bach, Scarlatti and Couperin from obscurity and presented them to people who probably ignored their very existence, let alone their music. That in the process they created a tradition (which is itself rather un-uniform, witness the earliest recordings) is undeniable and unavoidable: that's how things work.

One can apply the same reasoning to Matthaeus-Passion. Mendelssohn's interpretation, which I'm positively sure many HIPsters would abhorr if they were able to travel back in time, gave rise to a tradition which from a strict HIP point of view can be viewed as acting as a shackle.

What I really don't understand is why different, even conflicting, traditions cannot peacefully coexist? Why must only one of them be the right one?

[Florestan]

Only if one tries! 

PD

I guess disagreement is simply human nature. One can master it by agreeing to disagree, or one can succumb to it by disagreeing vehemently, even in matters which are as unimportant and as inconsequential as HIP vs non-HIP or Arrau vs Horowitz. I always try the former but often end up with the latter. 

[Spotted Horses]

As far as I know, transcription implies perforce at least altering some notes in order to make them playable on the other instrument, while the score is the same for both the harpischord and the piano (it's been recently discussed that Beethoven's early sonatas were advertised by publishers as "for harpsichord or pianoforte").

The two manuals of a harpsichord have a different timber allowing the two hands to be distinguished. The piano must use articulation and dynamics to reproduce this effect. In harpsichord music the two hands can cross which can, in some instances, require ingenuity of fingering and reassignment of notes between hands when the two collide on a single manual instrument. At this point I am not interested in getting into a debate on the semantics of the word 'transcription.'

In the case of other baroque keyboard music, I can't think off hand of a single case where a  modern piano player has done anything interesting. The best - let's say Peter Hill and Andrea Bachetti - just produce something unobjectionable really. Contrast the earth shattering work of harpsichordists like Leonhardt and Rübsam.  Again, I don't think it's necessarily the instrument, it's the pianistic tradition - a tradition which has more to do with Chopin and Liszt and Debussy than it has to do with any earlier musical styles  - - acting like a shackle.

That strikes me as a bit over-the-top. The main job of a musician performing Bach is the let me hear all of the voices. They don't have to shatter the earth. I have heard performers accomplish that on piano as well as on harpsichord.

[Mandryka]

The main job of a musician performing Bach is the let me hear all of the voices. 

That strikes me as a bit over-the-top. Making all the voices audible is (arguably) a necessary feature of a performance which does justice to what was, possibly, probably, the composer's conception of the music.

Bear in mind that there are people who really love performances which don't really make all the voices really clear -- Samuil Feinberg's WTC , for example.

[Florestan]

The two manuals of a harpsichord have a different timber allowing the two hands to be distinguished. The piano must use articulation and dynamics to reproduce this effect. In harpsichord music the two hands can cross which can, in some instances, require ingenuity of fingering and reassignment of notes between hands when the two collide on a single manual instrument. At this point I am not interested in getting into a debate on the semantics of the word 'transcription.'

Neither am I, actually. We can surely agree that the harpsichord has little in common with the piano. We might perhaps agree, too, that listening mostly, or exclusively, on one instrument is a matter of personal preference involving many factors and that in the end what matters is whether one enjoys what they hear or not, ie whether they are entertained or not. As you aptly said, if it sounds good it is good. 

[JBS]

I find Bach is better on piano than harpsichord, and that he's the only pre-1750 composer for whom this is true. [I also tend to think AoF is best heard from a multi-instrument ensemble, and not a single keyboard.]

[Florestan]

the composer's conception of the music.

There is simply no way to ascertain that in the case of composers who've been dead for centuries.

In some instances, there is no way to ascertain that even in the case of composers who recorded their own music, because there are significant differences between their own scores and their own performances (Debussy, Rachmaninoff, Prokofiev).

I am interested only in the performer's conception of the music, because it is that, and only that, which I will ever be able to know and experience.

[vers la flamme]

Maybe DavidW can move the past two pages into a new thread, perhaps "Harpsichords and Navel Gazing 2.0", and the conversation can move back to Mozart piano concertos 

[Brian]

Judging by the frequent polemics here on GMG, running from mild to vitriolic, I'd say it rather disunites them. 

Only if one tries! 

PD

I guess disagreement is simply human nature. One can master it by agreeing to disagree, or one can succumb to it by disagreeing vehemently, even in matters which are as unimportant and as inconsequential as HIP vs non-HIP or Arrau vs Horowitz. I always try the former but often end up with the latter. 

Of course I have to bring the subject back to food, but: this reminds me of a comment a chef made a while ago at an event. He said, "Everyone talks about how food brings together - brings families together, brings different cultures together, gets everyone around the table. But food divides people too." And then he gave a couple of examples: family members arguing over the right way to do traditional family recipes, and arguments over foods we like and hate. Try telling people something like "I hate M&Ms" or "the best Thanksgiving side dish is turnips" and watch the ensuing conflict erupt 

Maybe DavidW can move the past two pages into a new thread, perhaps "Harpsichords and Navel Gazing 2.0", and the conversation can move back to Mozart piano concertos 

  

We could. I haven't read every post. What do people think?

[JBS]

Some of it is about harpsichords and some of it can be called omphaloskepsis, and none of it about Mozart or piano concertos, so a move would certainly be logical.

[Brian]

Right-o - I'll get reorganizing in the morning. 

EDIT: It'll take a bit longer, I have a work project due ASAP. Late afternoon!

[Brian]

BUMP! This old GMG classic thread is getting a revival because I've merged in a recent discussion from the Recordings forum. I also merged in another HIP debate-focused discussion I found elsewhere from 2020 so this (hopefully) interesting reading can all be found in one place. 

[Madiel]

Yeah, well thanks for yet again doing the trick where a thread I never ever participated in will, FOR ALL ETERNTIY, appear in my list of Updated Topics.

Absolutely LOVE when the moderators do that.

Nearly deleted my profile and started again once...

DavidW had in fact created a separate, new thread. And I was fine with that. But for some reason that wasn't good enough? No. Apparently we had to go find some other old one, stitch that separate, new thread into it, and say "BUMP!"

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go find some fresh kittens to torture.

[Que]

BUMP! This old GMG classic thread is getting a revival because I've merged in a recent discussion from the Recordings forum. I also merged in another HIP debate-focused discussion I found elsewhere from 2020 so this (hopefully) interesting reading can all be found in one place. 

Good job!!