Bruckner good, Mahler boring?

[71 dB]

well.... indirectly... even if they were self-taught, they had scores to study.

Elgar's father had a music store where young Elgar spend time and studied scores. Elgar is not only self-taugh, he is well-self-taugh.

[BachQ]

In much the same way that a tree benefits from the Yard Sale notices stapled to its trunk.

........ In much the same way that a urinal deodorizer block benefits from a direct hit ........

[greg]

Actually The Cello Concerto is relatively simple Elgar. I think that's the reason why many like that work so much. They can understand the music. The Violin Concerto is more complex and the Symphonies more complex than the concerti. So, Mahler 6th is more complex than Elgar's Cello Concerto but less complex than the symphonies. We should compare similar works. Unfortunately Mahler did not wrote a Cello Concerto. Maybe he was not as versatile as Elgar?

yeah, i've heard the Violin Concerto, too, and i did notice it was pretty complex. Unfortunately, only the short score was posted on the internet 

does anyone have the score to the 2nd symphony? I'd also like to hear it, too, never have heard it..... if this is more complex than Mahler 6, that's really something. Now if it's more complex than Mahler 9 AND a Strauss score than i'll admit Elgar is one insane complex score-writing machine! 

(pretty please, Elgar 2nd.......)

oh, btw, Mahler had way less time to compose..... even though he was known to be a good pianist, he only wrote i think 2 surviving pieces which include piano, the early Piano Quartet totally kicks butt. I don't know why he didn't write any concertos, i think he just preferred writing symphonies and orchestral works which often involve singing. He was a conductor, so i guess it's only natural.

[karlhenning]

Elgar's father had a music store where young Elgar spend time and studied scores. Elgar is not only self-taugh, he is well-self-taught.

And remind us all what this has to do with Bruckner or Mahler, Poju?

Hey! I've got an idea!  What don't you make irrelevant comments about Elgar on all the threads, Poju!  That way, you can maximize the potential for turning the most people off from Elgar, whom consensus is not inclined, at any event, to consider a first-rank composer.

Go for it, Poju!

[71 dB]

And remind us all what this has to do with Bruckner or Mahler, Poju?

Hey! I've got an idea!  What don't you make irrelevant comments about Elgar on all the threads, Poju!  That way, you can maximize the potential for turning the most people off from Elgar, whom consensus is not inclined, at any event, to consider a first-rank composer.

Go for it, Poju!

I don't want to hijack all the threads, only those that makes sense to hijack. 

Anyway, talking about Bruckner and Mahler I prefer Bruckner.

[mahlertitan]

Anyway, talking about Bruckner and Mahler I prefer Bruckner.

finally! thank you! Why couldn't you say this in the first place without having to bring up Elgar?

[BachQ]

I don't want to hijack all the threads, only those that makes sense to hijack. 

71 dB, that's excellent use of logic and rational reasoning, namely: hijack "only those [threads] that makes sense to hijack." 

[greg]

anyone with the score/sound files of Elgar 2nd?

[karlhenning]

anyone with the score/sound files of Elgar 2nd?

I once had the score to the Elgar symphonies.  Then came Poju's gibberish, and I realized I could sell that score to a second-hand shop 

[greg]

I once had the score to the Elgar symphonies.  Then came Poju's gibberish, and I realized I could sell that score to a second-hand shop 

oh, like Goodwill?..... if i went to Goodwill and found an Elgar score there, i'd have a heart attack! 

[jwinter]

Oh what the hell, I'll try making a post about Bruckner and Mahler.  Can't hurt.

As far as my own listening experience with the two of them goes, if you'd asked me 5 years ago I'd have said that Mahler was THE MAN; but in recent years I have shifted very definitely towards Bruckner.  I still love them both, but Bruckner speaks to me in a way that Mahler simply doesn't.  I know it's cliche to speak of a Bruckner symphony being like a cathedral, but for me the analogy works -- at his best he attains a spirituality that's hard to describe, and a key component of it is the massive structures he uses, those repeating themes, particularly in the brass, conjuring images of arches and columns repeating into the hazy distance.

Mahler is fundamentally more esoteric than Bruckner; he's constantly bringing new and strange elements into the orchestral mix, and while he sometimes achieves great power (think of the closing movement of the 3rd, or the opening march of the 6th), it is a more earth-bound, material kind of power, more physical.  They really speak different languages, I think; it's a difference in kind, something similar to Vivaldi and Bach to me -- Vivaldi makes me want to jump up and dance, whereas the best of Bach makes me feel like some higher power is levitating me right out of my seat.

Which one I choose depends largely on my mood.  Whether my recent decisive preference for Bruckner is purely personal taste, or if it says something about where I am in my life at this point, I have no idea.  I'll be curious to see if it still holds 5 years from now, though... 

[karlhenning]

Oh what the hell, I'll try making a post about Bruckner and Mahler.  Can't hurt.

[...] I still love them both, but Bruckner speaks to me in a way that Mahler simply doesn't.

Each composer has his own character, and his own tale to tell.  No composer speaks to us in the way that another speaks to us.

[karlhenning]

I pretty much like each of these two composer's voices.  In both cases, though, I've been to live performances of this or that symphony, where I was enjoying everything fairly well, and then in the fourth movement, I was overcome with a feeling that I wish they'd get on with it, and reach the end.

Setting aside the fact that, for whatever reason, I am finding some of the symphonies some kind of problematic, both Bruckner and Mahler wrote pieces for which I have unalloyed admiration and affection.

[Larry Rinkel]

anyone with the score/sound files of Elgar 2nd?

I have the score, Poop. It's also in a cheap Dover, I think.

[jochanaan]

...What I am not missing is Mahler and Bruckner. I listen to them too and that's the reason I can say Elgar was better than these two composers (and Bruckner is better than Mahler)...

Because YOU like him more?  But what if, say, Karl, or Greg, or I come to a different conclusion?  Which of us is right?

[jwinter]

Each composer has his own character, and his own tale to tell.  No composer speaks to us in the way that another speaks to us.

Quite right, well said.  Allow me to put it thus:  Of late, I find that I draw more personal meaning and spiritual sustenance from Bruckner's music than I do from Mahler.  Which isn't saying much at all about the composers, I suppose, but about me as a listener...

[Cato]

Compare the sonic world of Bruckner in the Eighth and Ninth Symphonies, which date from the 1890's, to what his former student Mahler is doing at the same time.  The expansion of the musical idiom, motivically, harmonically, and even structurally, in these two Bruckner works, is something which one will also hear later in Mahler's Ninth and Tenth Symphonies.

So both are pushing their limits, but in different ways, at different times.

[EmpNapoleon]

I've been listening to Mahler with suspicion because of this topic.  I'm feeling that Mahler is lacking something Bruckner has (I've always like Bruckner more than Mahler, though).  Much of my listening is guided by the people on this board, since none of my friends, family, or anyone else I know listen to the music discussed here.  So, if someone here I like writes a statement of appreciation, I may listen with more joy.  If the statement is a critique, I listen sceptically.  This topic has ruined Mahler a bit for me.  However, it's my own fault Mahler doesn't sound as good, and my own power that Bruckner sounds better than ever (Magler was "ruined" a bit while I was thinking about writing this as I was listening to Barenboim's Mahler 7, which was my favorite cd for about a year.  Maybe I listened to this recording one time too many, or maybe I shouldnt have been thinking of GMG while listening).  To bring up the topic about self-education, I both am limited and unlimited in my listening abilities.  My music teachers (GMG members), both bless and harm me with their guidance.

I respect 71dB's persistent love for Elgar in the face of persecution.  However, he does that which he admits he hates to see others do: he criticizes their favorite composers.  My advice, 71dB, is magnanimity.  Praise Elgar, and if someone criticizes him, don't retaliate.  It would be funny if we went to Heaven and God said, "Elgar is better than both Bruckner and Mahler."  It would also be funny if we died and found out that there is only a devil, no God, and He said, "I lied about God."  Well, maybe not that funny.


Anyways, I don't know the effect of popular opinion on my taste, but one thing is clear to me that I haven't heard so far: Bruckner's music is many times more serious than Mahler's.  Bruckner is always very serious, even in his scherzos.  Only the Study Symphony is not that serious.

[karlhenning]

I've been listening to Mahler with suspicion because of this topic.  I'm feeling that Mahler is lacking something Bruckner has (I've always like Bruckner more than Mahler, though).

One word: Kindertotenlieder.

I respect 71dB's persistent love for Elgar in the face of persecution.

No, there's nothing to admire there.  (a) He still loves Elgar, so what?  My knowledge, admiration and affection for the music of Stravinsky goes back many years, and no negative comment from anyone either in person or on an Internet forum is going to alter that.  (b)  He persists in making a self-important ass of himself;  that isn't anything to respect, either.

[BachQ]

anyone with the score/sound files of Elgar 2nd?

Greg, I have a score of Elgar's First Symphony.  I will ship it to you, along with the accompanying birdcage.  No charge to you.  One minor warning, however: some of the pages are soiled.