Bruckner good, Mahler boring?

[mahlertitan]

mm, looks like we have conflicting informations here, some of the sources might be erroneous, but which? I am confused, which ones should i trust? 

and if Mahler indeed "attend some lectures", does that count as "studying from" Bruckner? and what happened to the enrollment records?

[Bonehelm]

I don't agree. In my opinion Elgar was able to develop an amazing style out of the many influences of earlier masters. Elgar is versatile having composed all kind of works from rather simple salon works all way up to very sophisticated and complex symphonies and other orchestal/choral works. That's not uneven artistry but versatility and that takes talent. Bruckner and Mahler are significantly less versatile making them also less interesting artists. Elgar's problem is his art takes an open and intellectual mind to fully understand.

Everything turns "old fashioned" in time.

You are comparing oranges to apples again. Different composers have different goals; that is to say, not every composer wants to write small scale works and large scale works in their entire output. Some like the intimacy of chamber music, and for whatever reason finds it easier to communicate the ideas they wanted to, while others rely on massive structures and instrumentation to show the full glory of their compositions, like Mahler and Bruckner. You can't say a composer is more "versatile" than the other just because the other composer is mainly a symphonist while another wrote some leisure entertainment, and some serious works.

By the way, what makes you think Bruckner and Mahler are not capable of writing small scale works? Do you even realize that both composers have written chamber music like piano quintets or even solo piano music? Those are like a gnome compared to their titanic symphonies counterpart.

[longears]

I don't agree. In my opinion Elgar was able to develop an amazing style out of the many influences of earlier masters. Elgar is versatile having composed all kind of works from rather simple salon works all way up to very sophisticated and complex symphonies and other orchestal/choral works. That's not uneven artistry but versatility and that takes talent.

So far so good.

Bruckner and Mahler are significantly less versatile making them also less interesting artists.

Whoops.  Confusing your value judgments with absolute truths.  Bound to ruffle some feathers.

Elgar's problem is his art takes an open and intellectual mind to fully understand.

Darn!  There you go again, sabotaging yourself by making an unnecessary and idiotic attack on those who don't share your opinion, claiming that their minds are closed and they lack the intelligence to grasp his music.  This is a direct assault and bound to invite retribution.

Furthermore, hundreds of your posts amply demonstrate that if anyone's mind is closed and lacks intellectual acumen it's yours--therefore you are not likely to find any ears sympathetic to your point of view.

Please give it a rest--or take your issue to the Wagner lovers' threads.  You and they should get along famously!

[mahlertitan]

I think 71db is an Elgar loving robot somone needs to reprogram him to stop attacking other composers.

[longears]

mm, looks like we have conflicting informations here, some of the sources might be erroneous, but which? I am confused, which ones should i trust? 

and if Mahler indeed "attend some lectures", does that count as "studying from" Bruckner? and what happened to the enrollment records?

1) I would trust Mahler himself.
2) There's no conclusive evidence that Mahler attended Bruckner's lectures.
3) As I said above, he entered Bruckner's class on the form -- just like you might one day enter "Logic 1" on your class enrollment form--but then either he or someone else scratched it out.

[Bonehelm]

So far so good.
Whoops.  Confusing your value judgments with absolute truths.  Bound to ruffle some feathers.
Darn!  There you go again, sabotaging yourself by making an unnecessary and idiotic attack on those who don't share your opinion, claiming that their minds are closed and they lack the intelligence to grasp his music.  This is a direct assault and bound to invite retribution.

Furthermore, hundreds of your posts amply demonstrate that if anyone's mind is closed and lacks intellectual acumen it's yours--therefore you are not likely to find any ears sympathetic to your point of view.

Please give it a rest--or take your issue to the Wagner lovers' threads.  You and they should get along famously!

I 100% agree with this post. If anyone is ''close-minded", or "brainwashed'' by education, it's you, Poju.

You know what? This is not just longear's and my opinion, it's also the majority of GMG's. So we are not the only ones picking on you here. I don't understand, when the whole world is pointing out your mistakes, why can't you realize the fault and all this ridiculousness is yours? Do you believe you are the most intelligent being here or something?

[longears]

Do you believe you are the most intelligent being here or something?

I believe he's made that clear dozens of times.  And seems too benighted to recognize just how delusional this is. 

BTW, I'm not picking on him at all, but trying to help him to see the folly of his ways--but it's difficult.  I've rarely encountered such a slow learner, which is one reason I suspect an organic malfunction. 

[mahlertitan]

1) I would trust Mahler himself.
2) There's no conclusive evidence that Mahler attended Bruckner's lectures.
3) As I said above, he entered Bruckner's class on the form -- just like you might one day enter "Logic 1" on your class enrollment form--but then either he or someone else scratched it out.

then it is settled, Mahler didn't study with Bruckner formally, therefore not a pupil of his. It is interesting though, among all the evidences you and i gathered, the deciding one is from an internet article.

[drogulus]

     There's truly extraordinary music in much of what Elgar wrote. I don't pretend to know why it doesn't finally cohere in, say, Caractacus, the way it does in The Dream Of Gerontius. Caractacus reminds me of Sullivan at points, but they are usually good points.

then it is settled, Mahler didn't study with Bruckner formally, therefore not a pupil of his. It is interesting though, among all the evidences you and i gathered, the deciding one is from an internet article.

     A book review quoting a Mahler biography quoting a Mahler letter.

[mahlertitan]

A book review quoting a Mahler biography quoting a Mahler letter.

[71 dB]

You are comparing oranges to apples again. Different composers have different goals; that is to say, not every composer wants to write small scale works and large scale works in their entire output. Some like the intimacy of chamber music, and for whatever reason finds it easier to communicate the ideas they wanted to, while others rely on massive structures and instrumentation to show the full glory of their compositions, like Mahler and Bruckner. You can't say a composer is more "versatile" than the other just because the other composer is mainly a symphonist while another wrote some leisure entertainment, and some serious works.

Well, what is the problem then? Why can't people just like Elgar? Everytime an argument is against Elgar it is "valid" and everytime I try to give an argument to support Elgar it is "not valid". So unfair!

By the way, what makes you think Bruckner and Mahler are not capable of writing small scale works? Do you even realize that both composers have written chamber music like piano quintets or even solo piano music? Those are like a gnome compared to their titanic symphonies counterpart.

I know. Still, Elgar's output is superior in versatility. If Piano Quintets and solo piano music are credits to other composers they are credits to Elgar too plus Elgar wrote oratorios, concertos, cantatas, incidental music, marches, etc.

[drogulus]

Well, what is the problem then? Why can't people just like Elgar? Everytime an argument is against Elgar it is "valid" and everytime I try to give an argument to support Elgar it is "not valid". So unfair!

    Fairness to Elgar is not my principle goal. I just want to listen to the music that pleases me the most. It also serves my purpose to give composers a second chance, so that I might learn something new on occasion. After that I consider my obligation to be fair-minded fully discharged and I'm free to hate these pathetic untalented scribblers from now 'til Doomsday. What could be fairer than that?

[mahlertitan]

"I was never a pupil of Bruckner. The world thinks I studied with him because in my student days in Vienna I was so often in his company and was reckoned among his first disciples. In fact, I believe, that at one time my friend Krzyzanowski and I were his sole followers. In spite of the great difference in age between us, Bruckner's happy disposition and his childlike, trusting nature rendered our relationship one of open friendship. Naturally the realization and understanding of his ideals which I then arrived at cannot have been without influence upon my course as artist and man. Hence I believe I am perhaps more justified than most others in calling myself his pupil and I shall always do so with deep gratitude."*

*Bruckner Blaetter--III. Jahrgang 1931, Nummer 2-3.

the full quotation, in case anyone is interested.

[71 dB]

Whoops.  Confusing your value judgments with absolute truths.  Bound to ruffle some feathers.

I have always found Mahler's and Bruckner's music less interesting than Elgar's music. That's why I praise Elgar in the first place! I am entitled to that, am I not?

Darn!  There you go again, sabotaging yourself by making an unnecessary and idiotic attack on those who don't share your opinion, claiming that their minds are closed and they lack the intelligence to grasp his music.  This is a direct assault and bound to invite retribution.

Furthermore, hundreds of your posts amply demonstrate that if anyone's mind is closed and lacks intellectual acumen it's yours--therefore you are not likely to find any ears sympathetic to your point of view.

Please give it a rest--or take your issue to the Wagner lovers' threads.  You and they should get along famously!

You asked me to remove my "F*ck you Elgar haters!" avatar and then you write me a "F*ck you Elgar lovers" post. Thanks!

Read the posts on this forum and see yourself that most of the negative posts about Elgar are expressions of bad attitude, arrogance against a great composer whose legacy they don't want to admit and fully understand. The outer movements of Elgar's symphonies are brilliant music and all it takes to see that is to take the music seriously and listening to it carefully many times. People are not doing that so they ARE narrow-minded, lingering on the "safe" side of social acceptance praising Mahler and Bruckner.

[jochanaan]

I have always found Mahler's and Bruckner's music less interesting than Elgar's music. That's why I praise Elgar in the first place! I am entitled to that, am I not?

You are.  But we're also entitled to express differing opinions.

Read the posts on this forum and see yourself that most of the negative posts about Elgar are expressions of bad attitude, arrogance against a great composer whose legacy they don't want to admit and fully understand. The outer movements of Elgar's symphonies are brilliant music and all it takes to see that is to take the music seriously and listening to it carefully many times. People are not doing that so they ARE narrow-minded, lingering on the "safe" side of social acceptance praising Mahler and Bruckner.

LOL Now THAT's funny! Not too long ago Mahler was anything but a "safe" composer, and there are still many, a few of them here on GMG, who find Mahler insufferable and Bruckner insufferably tedious.  If anything, Sir Edward's a lot "safer" than Anton and Gustav.

And I'm not a total Germanophile either.  Among English composers I dearly love Holst and Britten and have great respect for several others including Michael Tippett.  An Englishman, Richard Rodney Bennett, wrote my currently favorite 20th-century oboe sonata.  Americans, Bohemians, Frenchmen (and Frenchwomen), Hungarians, Italians, Russians and denizens of many other nations are also among my favorite composers.

So you can hardly accuse ME of being narrow-minded.

[Bonehelm]

You are.  But we're also entitled to express differing opinions.LOL Now THAT's funny! Not too long ago Mahler was anything but a "safe" composer, and there are still many, a few of them here on GMG, who find Mahler insufferable and Bruckner insufferably tedious.  If anything, Sir Edward's a lot "safer" than Anton and Gustav.

And I'm not a total Germanophile either.  Among English composers I dearly love Holst and Britten and have great respect for several others including Michael Tippett.  An Englishman, Richard Rodney Bennett, wrote my currently favorite 20th-century oboe sonata.  Americans, Bohemians, Frenchmen (and Frenchwomen), Hungarians, Italians, Russians and denizens of many other nations are also among my favorite composers.

So you can hardly accuse ME of being narrow-minded.

jochanaan, this is largely off-topic, but just out of curiousity, is that DP you? It looks like a Hollywood director or something...

[71 dB]

You are.  But we're also entitled to express differing opinions.

And you have done that.

LOL Now THAT's funny! Not too long ago Mahler was anything but a "safe" composer, and there are still many, a few of them here on GMG, who find Mahler insufferable and Bruckner insufferably tedious.  If anything, Sir Edward's a lot "safer" than Anton and Gustav.

And I'm not a total Germanophile either.  Among English composers I dearly love Holst and Britten and have great respect for several others including Michael Tippett.  An Englishman, Richard Rodney Bennett, wrote my currently favorite 20th-century oboe sonata.  Americans, Bohemians, Frenchmen (and Frenchwomen), Hungarians, Italians, Russians and denizens of many other nations are also among my favorite composers.

So you can hardly accuse ME of being narrow-minded.

Mahler and Bruckner unsafe composers? Hard to imagine that It's like if you dig these two composers you are inside the club of "good people".

[mahlertitan]

Mahler and Bruckner unsafe composers? Hard to imagine that It's like if you dig these two composers you are inside the club of "good people".

I am sure there was a time where Elgar's music was much more frequently performed than Bruckner and Mahler.

[greg]

I am sure there was a time where Elgar's music was much more frequently performed than Bruckner and Mahler.

yeah, right now, in hell

[BachQ]

yeah, right now, in hell

YES!