The Art of Wilhelm Furtwängler

[George]

Strongly recommended - even to replace existing transfers on DG or Tahra.



Q

Have you heard the Music and Arts transfer? If so, how does it stack up to the Melodiya?

If not, would you compare if I uploaded a sample for you? I could do a WAV of the first 2 minutes or so. (I finally figured out how to edit tracks on itunes) 

[Peregrine]

Have you heard the Music and Arts transfer? If so, how does it stack up to the Melodiya?

If not, would you compare if I uploaded a sample for you? I could do a WAV of the first 2 minutes or so. (I finally figured out how to edit tracks on itunes) 

I'ld suspect the Melodiya is better, as the Tahra transfers were always supposed to be better than the Music & Arts set (which I have BTW)...

[Anne]

If I remember correctly you are located in the US. The only US source I know is Russian DVD.
For Europeans: for some inexplicable reason it's full price in the UK, while its mid price elsewhere.
The series goes for €12 at jpc.

BTW I did post some highlights of the series earlier.

Q

Thanks for the link.  I will check out the highlights you mentioned.

[Mark]

Okay, time to admit my utter confusion.

I have what looks like a complete cycle of Beethoven's symphonies under Furtwangler (don't ask how I came by it ). The only information I have about each is as follows:

Symphonies Nos. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 & 9 are with the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra.

Symphony 8 is allegedly with the Stockholm Philharmonic Orchestra.

So my question is this: Which cycle/set is this, and which label are these recordings on? Any help with years would also be great, as I'm in a complete mix trying to figure it out.

Thanks.

[Peregrine]

Okay, time to admit my utter confusion.

I have what looks like a complete cycle of Beethoven's symphonies under Furtwangler (don't ask how I came by it ). The only information I have about each is as follows:

Symphonies Nos. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 & 9 are with the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra.

Symphony 8 is allegedly with the Stockholm Philharmonic Orchestra.

So my question is this: Which cycle/set is this, and which label are these recordings on? Any help with years would also be great, as I'm in a complete mix trying to figure it out.

Thanks.

Probably the studio set from EMI...

http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-9-Symphonies-Ludwig-van/dp/B00004YU8G/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1195943552&sr=1-1

[Mark]

Probably the studio set from EMI...

http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-9-Symphonies-Ludwig-van/dp/B00004YU8G/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1195943552&sr=1-1

That's what I figured shortly after I posted . Cheers!

[Renfield]

My second issue form the recent series of Melodiya's war-time recordings.
I will mainly comment on the transfer of the war-time recording of the 9th, recorded live on the 22th of March 1942. This confirms my impression that Melodiya has superior sources, and - not unimportant - does a terrific job with it this time around! Of this recording I already have what was IMO the best available sound-wise: the issue on Tahra. But Melodiya sweeps the board: the clearest, most natural sound and with more presence and details - complete with squeaking chairs or floor boards and coughing.
And the better sound quality does so much good for the performance! To me it comes across as more mellow and elegant than before.
Note that even this transfer can't take away the deficiences of the original recording, which is not the best of the various war-time recordings: some rough edges in the upper strings and overloading in the last movement.

Strongly recommended - even to replace existing transfers on DG or Tahra.



Q

It looks like I need to revisit that "Melodiya Madness" source of mine, if the transfer is even better than the Tahra one. Many thanks for the heads-up!

[Dancing Divertimentian]

It looks like I need to revisit that "Melodiya Madness" source of mine, if the transfer is even better than the Tahra one. Many thanks for the heads-up!

The interesting thing about these new Melodiya/Furtwängler transfers is that according to BBC Music Magazine Melodiya didn't actually use the original German Radio tapes for their transfers but instead used their own copies of the tapes made years ago.

Gramophone mentioned the same thing but I don't remember precisely how their information read.

BBC Music had a lavish two-page spread devoted to these new Melodiya/Furtwängler reissues and actually found them wanting compared to Tahra. But that's solely their impression, of course.

If anyone has a BBC Music mag from a month or two ago perhaps they can shed more light on the subject.

(Not doubting you, Q, just perplexed... )

[George]

George, matters of transfers are allways rather subjective.
So, I've uploaded the 1st mvt HERE for you and anyone else interested - to make up your own minds. It's in AAC 320 kbps btw.

Q

I can't tell. Perhaps if you uploaded the other 3 movements? 

Seriously, (ok, I'm only half kidding) thanks for that, Que! I will compare in the morning. 

[George]

I can't tell. Perhaps if you uploaded the other 3 movements? 

Seriously, (ok, I'm only half kidding) thanks for that, Que! I will compare in the morning. 

So that you (and others could compare, I have uploaded the Music and Arts transfer of the first movement, also in AAC 320:

http://www.mediafire.com/?42ant7ccoly

My preliminary findings are that I like the Music and Arts more. I hear less distortion, at least partially due to the fact that the levels are lower, and  the instruments sound more "real" to me.

[Que]

The interesting thing about these new Melodiya/Furtwängler transfers is that according to BBC Music Magazine Melodiya didn't actually use the original German Radio tapes for their transfers but instead used their own copies of the tapes made years ago.

Gramophone mentioned the same thing but I don't remember precisely how their information read.

BBC Music had a lavish two-page spread devoted to these new Melodiya/Furtwängler reissues and actually found them wanting compared to Tahra. But that's solely their impression, of course.

If anyone has a BBC Music mag from a month or two ago perhaps they can shed more light on the subject.

(Not doubting you, Q, just perplexed... )

Interesting!  And the story about the copies could very well be true. The problem with magnetic tapes is of course that their condition steadily deteriorates. So I imagine that copies made when the originals where in better condition, could actually sound better?
Another way go about it, is to take transfers from post-war Melodiya LP's - that's what Opus Kura and the French Furtwängler Society do. BTW interesting notes by Opus Kura on this particular recording HERE. Haven't heard their transfer!

As for the comparison - it is a trade off: more details and presence ("higher level"), less constriction but decidely more "roughness" in return. Tahra has smoothed out the rough edges. There are also some differences in approach on the issue of pitch, I think. I greatly prefer Tahra's transfers of the post-war recordings, but I've never found their issues of the war-time recordings entirely satisfactory.

Will compare your M&A sample, George!

Q

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Interesting!  And the story about the copies could very well be true. The problem with magnetic tapes is of course that their condition steadily deteriorates. So I imagine that copies made when the originals where in better condition, could actually sound better?

Sounds like a book could be written on the subject, Q.

It could be the original tapes are in such bad condition they can't be used anymore. Especially since, according to the same BBC Music article, DG themselves shied away from using these tapes in their latest Furtwängler transfers. And they own them!! So could it be the days of original German Radio transfers are over?

[Peregrine]

Well if it's the BBC music magazine, where are you Mark? Come on!

[Mark]

If anyone has a BBC Music mag from a month or two ago perhaps they can shed more light on the subject.

Here's part one of that article ...

[Mark]

... and here's part two.

[Que]

Great Mark! Thanks! 

Q

[Peregrine]

Cheers, Mark, very interesting.

[Que]

Well, it has been an interesting LvB 9th/'42 WF morning!

With my morning tea I did a complete run of the transfer on Tahra. Then, I sampled all movements of the issue on Melodiya. And I listened to George's upload of the 1st mvt on M&A.

So, what to make of it? 
First, let me reassure all Tahra fans - their transfer is a very fine job indeed.
But I was reaffirmed my earlier impressions on the differences I noted earlier. Tahra does not have less distortion or variability in sound than Melodiya. The difference is that it has been much more moderated /smoothed -  there is hardly ANY hiss left. Afterall, the characteristics mentioned in BBC Magazine: "gritty, distorted and variable" are all deficiencies in the original recording - I did not find it a very expertly remark. The overall impression is quieter, smoother - "clean" but veiled. Sound has less presence and, especially in the 1st mvt and the last mvt, less definition - it is more "blurred" at times. In the 3rd mvt - where original sound quality is best - I very much enjoyed the Tahra.

The M&A sounds actually pretty good to me - open, natural sound with presence. Based on this sample, I would not confirm, perhaps even dismiss, any superiority of the transfer on Tahra. But M&A redid these, is it not? Did they indicate the sources they used?

Melodiya's sound is also "harsher" at times, but that sounds as the recording just is - not as the product of bad remastering. The sources they used do not sound inferior in quality in comparison to Tahra - maybe even a bit the other way around. Melodiya gives no details on the remastering - apart from "P 2006". But the mastering seems to me rather sophisticated for 1993, and the very "purist" approach with very little filtering would be totally out of sink with Melodiya's "(very) heavy-filtering" policy of those days. So, maybe a question mark there.

The issue is IMO: do you like a layer of make-up on this old lady, or not?

BTW, I have had very good experiences with Opus Kura's transfers from Melodiya LP's of war-time recordings: a superb Bruckner 5th (easily beating DG and M&A), and LvB 4th & 7th (both '43). But on-line samples of their transfer of the 9th sounded not quite right to me - they lowered speed to lower pitch, which makes it "bottom heavy".

Q

[Bogey]

The issue is IMO: do you like a layer of make-up on this old lady, or not?

Q

Q,
You cannot begin to understand how painful it it is to have one's Trix cereal rocket through one's nasal cavity due to the sudden burst of laughter caused by the above line. 

[Peregrine]

Q,
You cannot begin to understand how painful it it is to have one's Trix cereal rocket through one's nasal cavity due to the sudden burst of laughter caused by the above line. 

I tend to prefer mine without the make-up...