The Art of Wilhelm Furtwängler

[Barney1988]

While I was visiting a friend in Berlin a week ago, I went into a shop where one could listen to any Cd they had on sale, which was a first for me ( in the sense that I have never been to a 'normal', i.e. not second hand, CD shop where they offer to open the CDs! ). Although very useful because they had some Tahra recording of Furtwangler, so I bought a couple.
I can see why they are, in general, strongly recommended. The sound is excellent, especially for the 1942 Beethoven 9th ( which I bought with the 1943 5th and Abendroth's recording of the Pastorale).

[Barney1988]

I came across this documentary on Furtwangler on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvCRFK4vyys&feature=g-vrec
(First of four parts)

[jwinter]

Has anybody bought the giant brick?  I've already got tons of the stuff on it, just curious as to the sound quality... the reviews on Amazon are good, though notoriously untrustworthy 

[asin]B004JC16LC[/asin]

[Bogey]

Has anybody bought the giant brick?  I've already got tons of the stuff on it, just curious as to the sound quality... the reviews on Amazon are good, though notoriously untrustworthy 

[asin]B004JC16LC[/asin]

Considered it....man, that is one big of music!

[Coopmv]

Considered it....man, that is one big of music!

The best price is offered by a Germany based MP vendor.  But is it gonna to ship this Lego block to the US for $2.98 as listed?  I have never ordered from any Amazon MP vendor located outside the US and do not know how that shipping and handling work ...

[Lilas Pastia]

Has anybody bought the giant brick?  I've already got tons of the stuff on it, just curious as to the sound quality... the reviews on Amazon are good, though notoriously untrustworthy 

[asin]B004JC16LC[/asin]

Thanks for the tip. It's on the way to these northern shores. I'm crossing my fingers.

[bluto32]

I have two questions about Furtwangler's 1942 recordings of Beethoven's 9th:

(1) I would like to get a recording of the famous one from 22-24 March 1942 recording of Beethoven's 9th by Furtwangler, and have been browsing to see what is currently available in the UK.
Which of the following are to be pounced on / avoided?

Melodiya: hard to find in UK, relatively expensive in USA, but seems to be well liked in this forum.


Opus Kura 7003: mixed reviews, some very positive. But timing of 3rd movement is about 15 seconds longer; one Amazon reviewer said pitch sounded flat as a result...
Any comment from anyone here who has compared this transfer with another one?


Guild Historical: performance well reviewed on MusicWeb, but no mention of transfer quality. Any good?


Pristine Audio: a number of coughs removed. Praised on MusicWeb; posted on Youtube.
Sounds quite good and looks tempting.


Tahra: out of print.


M&A 653: out of print.


RCD ("Russian Compact Disc") 25006: can't find any details of this one... Presto sell it.



=============================================


(2) This question relates to the following Furtwangler War Recordings box set by Music and Arts (M&A 4049):


I thought at first that the Beethoven's 9th on disc 4 was a reissue of the green M&A disc above which is out of print. However, the sound clips on both Presto and Amazon sound very different to those of the other March 1942 transfers above in both performance and quality. Clips are available for comparison on http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Music%2B%2526%2BArts/MACD4049 and http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Music%2B%2526%2BArts/MACD4653.
This one sounds like a poor LP transfer, and the timings listed are substantially different too. As far as I can tell it is also not the April 1942 recording found on Archipel 0270 (pic below).
So... what is this mysterious M&A recording from? Was there a 3rd recording in 1942? Or have both Amazon and Presto got the wrong clips (seems unlikely...)?


Archipel 0270: The 19 April 1942 radio broadcast recording. Posted on Youtube.
Clips found here: http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Archipel%2BRecords/ARPCD0270


Bluto

[liuzerus87]

Regarding 2), I own both the M&A set and the Melodiya release. They both claim the same date. Although it's been awhile since I've tried comparing the two, my impressions were that while the Melodiya remastering was better, they sounded like the same performance. Certainly the timings are very similar:

Melodiya
1. 17:17
2. 11:22
3. 20:07
4. 24:18

M&A
1. 17.18
2. 11.22
3. 20.07
4. 24.28

[bluto32]

Thanks for this.

Just to clarify - your M&A box set is this one with 4 CDs?
M&A 4049



The timings you list are interesting - they bear little resemblance to what Amazon or PrestoClassical give.
If you have a few spare minutes sometime, please could you compare the first 30 seconds of the movements on your CD with the corresponding clips highlighted in blue, green and red in my first post?

Many thanks,
Bluto

[Leo K.]

So... what is this mysterious M&A recording from? Was there a 3rd recording in 1942? Or have both Amazon and Presto got the wrong clips (seems unlikely...)?


Archipel 0270: The 19 April 1942 radio broadcast recording. Posted on Youtube.
Clips found here: http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Archipel%2BRecords/ARPCD0270


Bluto

The 19 April 1942 concert was given for Hitler's birthday. I have it and it's quite a performance. Because of the context of the concert, it is disturbing to ponder the audience (Among the audience are Himmler, the chief of the SS, and Goebbels, master propagandist).

[bluto32]

Thanks for the info, Leo. I'm more interested in the more famous March performance, and seeking a good transfer of this.

My initial post was probably ambiguous - I was asking which performance was on the M&A 4049 disk, since the clips online don't sound like the March 1942, or the April 1942 performance which you own.

Bluto

[ccar]

Thanks for the info, Leo. I'm more interested in the more famous March performance, and seeking a good transfer of this.

My initial post was probably ambiguous - I was asking which performance was on the M&A 4049 disk, since the clips online don't sound like the March 1942, or the April 1942 performance which you own.

Bluto

                               


The 22-24 March and the 19 April 1942 are two different performances. They are both most impressive by their intensity and fierceness and also by the contrast with all other Furtwangler recordings of the Ninth. The March is the most famous because it is more widely known. But don't miss the April 19th because the sound is comparably good and the interpretation is even more urgent and dramatic.     

As far as I know the best source for the March 1942 recording comes from the broadcast tapes but even these have considerable distortion and hiss.  From the various CD editions I know I would probably prefer the Melodiya, the Music & Arts 1999 or even the 2000 Archipel 0002 (not to be confused with the 2004 Archipel 0270, with the April 19th performance). The Tahra has two editions (1994 Furt 1004-07 and 2006 Furt 1101-04, this one with a better 2005 mastering). I don't think Opus Kura brings the best transfers, probably because their source were probably 78 discs and not the "original" tapes. And I'm not much used to the Pristine somewhat larger than life approach.

I believe the differences in timings between the various March 1942 editions most probably relate to different transfers and not to different takes. Some differences in timings between the two Music and Arts issues (1990 M&A 653 / 1999 M&A 4049) come also from different masterings. Both used Magnethophon tapes from the broadcast but the M&A 4049 got a new 1999 remastering. Curiously, the timings of the M&A 4049 approach more closely the timings of the Melodiya CD transfer (and we know they probably had the best access to the original tapes).   

[liuzerus87]

Thanks for this.

Just to clarify - your M&A box set is this one with 4 CDs?
M&A 4049


Many thanks,
Bluto

Bluto,

Yes I do own the 4cd set. Listening to your sample, I immediately hear far more crackling than on the file I ripped from the CD, and the tone sounds much less solid and well-defined. I don't think the sample is taken from the same remastering as the one on the disc.

I spent a couple of minutes comparing the Melodiya and M&A remasterings over the first couple of minutes of the opening movement. To be honest, while Melodiya sound might be a tad fuller, there's not a huge difference in either orchestra sound or noise reduction. Certainly, they're both very listenable if you're using to listening to historic recordings, and personally I'd be happy with either, really.

[trung224]

  For the sound, I second the Pristine' product. I have all these CDs but hearing the Pristine' remastered FLAC XR is the first time I totally enjoy this IMO "Ode to Hell" performance

[bluto32]

Yes I do own the 4cd set. Listening to your sample, I immediately hear far more crackling than on the file I ripped from the CD, and the tone sounds much less solid and well-defined. I don't think the sample is taken from the same remastering as the one on the disc.

Thank you for checking so quickly, Liuzerus. It is now clear from your observations that the clips on PrestoClassical are taken from the wrong CD - as are Amazon's clips, strangely enough... I wonder if you would therefore get the wrong recording by choosing to download the mp3s/Flacs from these stores?! It could be Mickey Mouse conducting in 1928 on these clips for all I know. Thanks also for your verdict on the quality of the M&A and Melodiya CDs you have.

For the sound, I second the Pristine' product. I have all these CDs but hearing the Pristine' remastered FLAC XR is the first time I totally enjoy this IMO "Ode to Hell" performance

Just out of interest, Trung, does "FLAC XR" mean that the Flac files have "ambient stereo"? If so, what's your view on the stereo effect for this recording?

Bluto

[trung224]

Just out of interest, Trung, does "FLAC XR" mean that the Flac files have "ambient stereo"? If so, what's your view on the stereo effect for this recording?

Bluto

The sound is still mono, but with more "air", the instrument sound is much more clear, and much less the distortion in high frequencies. You can mistaken that this recording made in 1951-1953, not 1942

[Concord]

The 19 April 1942 concert was given for Hitler's birthday. I have it and it's quite a performance. Because of the context of the concert, it is disturbing to ponder the audience (Among the audience are Himmler, the chief of the SS, and Goebbels, master propagandist).

You bring up a point that's been othering me for a while. There's a DJ on the Princeton radio station who palys a lot of perfromances by Furtwangler (Bruckner, mostly) from the early 40s, and I keep thinking, "What's with all the Nazi recordings?" Got to send those SS officers back to the camps happy.

[Lilas Pastia]

The Big Box was duly delivered, on time and superbly packaged. Incredibly cheap delivery charge, too

I'm dipping here and there and will describe the contents and my listening impressions as I lazily proceed through it.

[bigshot]

Can you check Furtwangler playing his own piano concerto with the BPO? That one sounds dismal on the Meister Konzerte set.

[Coopmv]

The Big Box was duly delivered, on time and superbly packaged. Incredibly cheap delivery charge, too

I'm dipping here and there and will describe the contents and my listening impressions as I lazily proceed through it.

Was it delivered from across the pond and the box arrived in one piece?  Did you also pay a fortune for the delivery?  I saw a German MP vendor on Amazon US advertized for the lowest price but I am skeptical ...