Music without pathos?

[EmpNapoleon]

Schoenberg in a letter to Ferruccio Busoni of August 1909:
"What I am striving for is total freedom from all forms, from all symbols of context and logic.  In other words, away with 'motivic writing.'  Away with harmony as cement or the building block in a larger architectural structure.  Harmony is expression and nothing more.  Next: away with pathos!"

I know Schoenberg himself didn't keep to this principle throughout his career.  Even if a musician's intention is to keep away from emotions, the audience is likely to reflect their own condition into the music.  To Richard Strauss, Schoenberg described his Five Pieces for orchestra as "a lively and interrupted interplay of colours, rhthyms, and moods."   But it is possible for music to ever be without pathos?  If so, which works (probably atonal) do you feel are devoid of compassion or symbols of human suffering?

[rappy]

The Impressionist (Debussy etc.) tried to avoid pathos and architectural structure. I'm not that happy with that, it works for paintings but not as well for music which takes time and therefore needs development (in my opinion).

Is it possible? It certainly is, the question could rather be: will it satisfy the listener?

[Mark]

If my understanding of pathos is correct, then this thread will run and run and run, because there are THOUSANDS of pieces of music where no pathos is evident. Without needing to cite any specific examples, I have only to draw general attention to any cheerful, upbeat tune that gladdens the heart and soul. True, such music touches the human emotions, but pathos is most commonly used to describe anything which ellicits feeling of sorrow or pity. So surely, any music - atonal or otherwise - which doesn't cause these types of emotion must surely be considered to be without pathos, no?

[EmpNapoleon]

Without needing to cite any specific examples, I have only to draw general attention to any cheerful, upbeat tune that gladdens the heart and soul.

I thought of that before asking the question.  Scherzos, suites, etc. are joyful.  Though, to bring up another topic, they're usually both happy and sad at the same time.  Well, maybe not at the same time, but both emotions are intertwined in some way.

So surely, any music - atonal or otherwise - which doesn't cause these types of emotion must surely be considered to be without pathos, no?

You're right.  I don't think I know what I'm talking about. 

The Impressionist (Debussy etc.) tried to avoid pathos and architectural structure.

Thanks.  He's one of the "famous" composers I haven't yet understood.

[Mark]

You're right.  I don't think I know what I'm talking about. 

[val]

EmpNapoleon

If so, which works (probably atonal) do you feel are devoid of compassion or symbols of human suffering?

It is curious, because Schönberg's music is full of pathos and emotional tension. Not only the first works but also the atonal, including the opus 16: in fact Schönberg gave titles to each of the five pieces, and the first one is very intense, even violent.
We find the same emotional content in Alban Berg and Webern's works: the 4th piece of Webern's opus 6, for example, is a funeral march.

[EmpNapoleon]

It is curious, because Schönberg's music is full of pathos and emotional tension. Not only the first works but also the atonal, including the opus 16: in fact Schönberg gave titles to each of the five pieces, and the first one is very intense, even violent.

Yea, I'm having a hard time understanding why he wrote "away with pathos!" in that letter.

[Cato]

Yea, I'm having a hard time understanding why he wrote "away with pathos!" in that letter.

I would like to see the original German text of the letter.  If I have some more time, I will see if the Internet has it somewhere.

"Pathos" goes back to a root meaning "to suffer," but yes, there are all kinds of works devoid of Pathos (e.g. Dvorak's Carnival Overture).

[Brian]

"Pathos" goes back to a root meaning "to suffer," but yes, there are all kinds of works devoid of Pathos (e.g. Dvorak's Carnival Overture).

I'm glad I'm not the only person who thinks of older music, though my thoughts went back to the high classical era and some of the particularly chipper, cheery symphonies and serenades composers cranked out at that time.