Elgar, as good a composer as......

[Harry]

But that description of Poju's activities here is all vapor, Harry:

No, no, no, all rock solid, mind...

[springrite]

No more than others Poju.....

...

[Harry]

Surely, the danger of a bear doesn't lie solely in its teeth or claws!

Well the growl wasn't much either, and his speed is of a snails....

[JoshLilly]

Heheh, the most funniest part of all this is that some of those upset at someone for slamming them over not thinking Elgar is great, are the very same ones who (heavily and repeatedly) slam others for thinking a different composer is greater from one in their own pantheon. Hypocricy is annoying, but also can be hilarious, because it's so senseless. It's fine to criticise someone for doing it, but I'd sure love the ones who (maybe correctly) point it out would stop doing it themselves.

I don't know who Poju is - someone I assume has departed - but he may very well have done inappropriate stuff. Telling someone else that they are inferior because they don't think that you're composer of choice is great is stupid. I didn't see anything by this person so I don't know what happened. People shouldn't react that way if someone doesn't like what they like. Hint, hint... whoever this person was, he wasn't the only one doing it, I can tell you that.

One thing I'd suggest, is the old "if you've got nothing nice to say, say nothing at all". I practice this. I've never heard one thing I ever liked by Bruckner, so I don't post to Bruckner threads. Maybe if I had a question about him I would, but I don't go on those threads talking about how I don't like him. I find it a pointless insertion of negativity. People clearly wanted a positive discussion about Bruckner, and more power to them. If someone starts a thread about, say, Elgar, though, the negativity can quickly rush in. Why do this? How about, if you don't like Elgar, don't bother the people who do and who want to talk about him? It's not that disliking is wrong, it's that people tend to be less interested in what you don't like, and it can be a real drag on what otherwise could be positive, informative, and fun for people.

[Larry Rinkel]

One thing I'd suggest, is the old "if you've got nothing nice to say, say nothing at all". I practice this. I've never heard one thing I ever liked by Bruckner, so I don't post to Bruckner threads. Maybe if I had a question about him I would, but I don't go on those threads talking about how I don't like him. I find it a pointless insertion of negativity. People clearly wanted a positive discussion about Bruckner, and more power to them. If someone starts a thread about, say, Elgar, though, the negativity can quickly rush in. Why do this? How about, if you don't like Elgar, don't bother the people who do and who want to talk about him? It's not that disliking is wrong, it's that people tend to be less interested in what you don't like, and it can be a real drag on what otherwise could be positive, informative, and fun for people.

So in other words, only positive comments about this or that piece of music are allowed in your mind? If you have reservations about a composer or work, just keep 'em to yourself, because otherwise it's a "drag" on the conversation?

[JoshLilly]

For the most part, yes. I have rarely seen anything good come out of it. I'm talking about the "So-and-so is the height of mediocrity" type things. That contributes nothing, and asks for nothing. It's a showstopper and intended to be nothing else.

I have tons of non-positive comments that are allowed in my mind, I just don't type them here, since I don't imagine it would do anybody any good. If I were to go to a Bruckner thread and write some of the things I think about his music, even with the most honest of intentions, it won't help anybody, and will probably just get me a handful of personal attacks. I can't imagine the people who like Bruckner and are using that thread would appreciate the insertion. I can't imagine my post would contribute anything of worth in a factual sense.

Why do it with only a bad outcome possible, and probably not one good thing to come of it?

[Mark]

I can't imagine my post would contribute anything of worth in a factual sense.

You want to contribute something useful? Here? Why?

[Great Gable]

So in other words, only positive comments about this or that piece of music are allowed in your mind? If you have reservations about a composer or work, just keep 'em to yourself, because otherwise it's a "drag" on the conversation?

That's not what we want - is it? I think the rule of thumb should be one of respect. By all means question but not to the point of the disparaging. Unfortunately, people on here are just like they are on other music forums - in other words like people everywhere. Many have their "sacred cows" and beware all those who fail to acquiesce and share the adoration. This is one of the more distasteful traits of human beings I'm afraid. I never did understand why anyone would get so impassioned about someone else's opinion but there you are - there are lots of things I fail to understand about the human race.

On the whole I have to agree with Josh - any sort of negativity can escalate into what you all have witnessed here and as I have done elsewhere on other forums. Better to keep one's dislike to oneself than share it. Although, even I can see the appeal in stating an adverse opinion when all others seem to be of different minds to me - just from the persective of bringing some balance to the proceedings. But that's rather provocative and that's the gist of why these sort of thread to degenerate - it is in people's nature to provoke. Mischief, however, still should be tempered by respect.

[Larry Rinkel]

Well the growl wasn't much either, and his speed is of a snails....

So if there was no real threat in your mind, why did you bother to start this thread, which you no doubt knew would become incendiary?

[Larry Rinkel]

For the most part, yes. I have rarely seen anything good come out of it. I'm talking about the "So-and-so is the height of mediocrity" type things. That contributes nothing, and asks for nothing. It's a showstopper and intended to be nothing else.

I have tons of non-positive comments that are allowed in my mind, I just don't type them here, since I don't imagine it would do anybody any good. If I were to go to a Bruckner thread and write some of the things I think about his music, even with the most honest of intentions, it won't help anybody, and will probably just get me a handful of personal attacks. I can't imagine the people who like Bruckner and are using that thread would appreciate the insertion. I can't imagine my post would contribute anything of worth in a factual sense.

Why do it with only a bad outcome possible, and probably not one good thing to come of it?

But it is ok to accuse others of "hypocrisy," and of saying things that are "stupid"? Remember, I'm talking to Mr. Positive here.

[Larry Rinkel]

That's not what we want - is it? I think the rule of thumb should be one of respect. By all means question but not to the point of the disparaging. Unfortunately, people on here are just like they are on other music forums - in other words like people everywhere. Many have their "sacred cows" and beware all those who fail to acquiesce and share the adoration. This is one of the more distasteful traits of human beings I'm afraid. I never did understand why anyone would get so impassioned about someone else's opinion but there you are - there are lots of things I fail to understand about the human race.

On the whole I have to agree with Josh - any sort of negativity can escalate into what you all have witnessed here and as I have done elsewhere on other forums. Better to keep one's dislike to oneself than share it.

On the whole I couldn't disagree with Josh more. The idea that we must all walk around with happy smiling faces out of some fear of offending someone's cherished beliefs is not the stuff of a mature intellect. I would think a mature, intelligent discussion of any piece of music or other issue can allow for both praise and criticism of the item under discussion, and as adults we should be open to the possibility that others don't admire everything we do and vice versa. When I led a discussion on Verdi's Falstaff here a year or two ago - a work that I consider one of the high points of 19th century music - there were plenty of critical comments aired about the work. None of these seemed to me insuperable, and I didn't crumble in a heap or break down in tears because some others disagreed with my admiration of this incredible opera, but it was a stimulating challenge to address opposing opinions, and ultimately some of the posters and I had to agree to disagree. Nothing wrong with that, it seems to me.

I suppose when the discussion becomes merely personal or belittling that's another thing, and should be avoided. We all ought to take care not to be personally provoking, though in the heat of the battle that sometimes happens. Honest intellectual disagreement, however, should be encouraged, whether it concerns Bruckner or anything else.

[JoshLilly]

On the whole I couldn't disagree with Josh more. The idea that we must all walk around with happy smiling faces out of some fear of offending someone's cherished beliefs is not the stuff of a mature intellect.

Well, you don't appear to be disagreeing with me here at all. I don't hold such an idea. Besides, I was talking specifically about posting in this place, not face-to-face conversations or even one person to another in private communication. If I were to post an honest thread wanting to discuss Dittersdorf, his works, and recordings, do you honestly think that the people who don't like him would be mature and intelligent in that thread?

And yes, hypocrisy applies to some people on this message board. They ridicule someone for doing something that they do.  A lot. That's what hypocrisy means, isn't it?

[bwv 1080]

Elgar is as good a composer as any other composer I do not listen to

[Harry]

So if there was no real threat in your mind, why did you bother to start this thread, which you no doubt knew would become incendiary?

To create more breathing room for Elgar my friend.....

[Harry]

But it is ok to accuse others of "hypocrisy," and of saying things that are "stupid"? Remember, I'm talking to Mr. Positive here.

We are allowed to say stupid things Larry, even you.......

[bwv 1080]

Certainly neither Elliott Carter nor Brian Ferneyhough has written anything more suitable for High School Graduation ceremonies

[Harry]

I suppose when the discussion becomes merely personal or belittling that's another thing, and should be avoided. We all ought to take care not to be personally provoking, though in the heat of the battle that sometimes happens. Honest intellectual disagreement, however, should be encouraged, whether it concerns Bruckner or anything else.

Right, and that is exactly what I meant with this thread, to stop this personal harrasment of a poster....
And for the rest I agree with you Larry, odd as it may seem to you....

[Mark]

Certainly neither Elliott Carter nor Brian Ferneyhough has written anything more suitable for High School Graduation ceremonies

[Don]

I suppose when the discussion becomes merely personal or belittling that's another thing, and should be avoided. We all ought to take care not to be personally provoking, though in the heat of the battle that sometimes happens. Honest intellectual disagreement, however, should be encouraged, whether it concerns Bruckner or anything else.

Agreed, but much of the tenor of the critcism here has been belittling.  Even so, I don't really have any problem with it for a few days in a row.  But this belittling criticism of Elgar and his champion on this list has been going on for weeks.

[Great Gable]

^It has rather become a bashers bashing thread hasn't it?^