Chopin

[George]

Anyway, I shall be listening over the weekend, thank you!

Your welcome, Brian, enjoy!

[Mandryka]

I don't think you're being critiqued, George, I think it's legitimately interesting. If all my favorite Chopin predated 1960, I think I would spend a bit of time trying to figure out why that might be, similarly to if all my favorite Chopin was by Russian pianists, or if all my favorite Chopin was on EMI... it's just something to be curious about.

Anyway, I shall be listening over the weekend, thank you!

George wasn't  being judged!  You know, I'm interested in how ideas about performance have changed, and was struck by the dates in the list. That's all.

I mean how could it be that someone only really likes antiques, or near antiques?

Well put  aside boring reasons (XX shares Cortot's religion or politics  so likes Cortot, XX was imprinted on Moiseiwitsch, XX saw a good Backhaus concert so likes Backhaus, XX hasn't heard any of the best recent performances attentively or sympathetically   - that sort of thing) 

Either quality must have taken a major tumble -- unlikely. Or style values have been subjected to a major change -- possible.

So I just thought it would be interesting to explore this aesthetic paradigm shift a little more deeply, that's all.

[madaboutmahler]

Daniel, I listened to Ohlsson's box cover-to-cover in January and wrote this post! Funnily enough, with the passage of time I'd be less likely to call the nocturnes standouts (mainly because I heard Moravec's recording at long last) but more likely to praise the little Berceuse for being a performance like nobody else's. I really did not enjoy the little-known first sonata, but on the other hand the Mozart variations for piano and orchestra are a total delight.

Thank you for the feedback, Brian!

[Brian]

Either quality must have taken a major tumble -- unlikely. Or style values have been subjected to a major change -- possible.

So I just thought it would be interesting to explore this aesthetic paradigm shift a little more deeply, that's all.

As I mentioned somewhere recently, Ivan Moravec is of George's mind too. In the interview on the new Supraphon reissue of his classic nocturnes, he says he believes that great Chopin playing has all but disappeared and everyone today is technically polished at the expense of expression. Old man's sweeping generalizations or not, it's a possibility at least.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

As I mentioned somewhere recently, Ivan Moravec is of George's mind too. In the interview on the new Supraphon reissue of his classic nocturnes, he says he believes that great Chopin playing has all but disappeared and everyone today is technically polished at the expense of expression. Old man's sweeping generalizations or not, it's a possibility at least.

Oh, c'mon! Let's be fair, now.

If some "old man" wants to start dropping A-bombs on me then he could at least give me the courtesy of rebuttal time. I mean, it's the human thing to do!

Much more entertaining that way.

Seriously, though, I (for one, anyway ) would value some delineation as to WHY "old man x" thinks the way he does. Is that asking too much?

[Brian]

Seriously, though, I (for one, anyway ) would value some delineation as to WHY "old man x" thinks the way he does. Is that asking too much?

His full remark: "Perhaps it is a generational phenomenon. Today, the technical level, as well as craft integrity, is increasing. When you listen to some of the gentlemen from the past century, they seem like complete amateurs in comparison. Naturally, this does not apply to all of them, but sometimes you marvel at how the person managed to attain global fame. This cannot happen today. Today, you can hear dozens, hundreds of young performers who don't make mistakes. They are able to play everything. That is: they play all the notes. And many a time it doesn't actually say anything to you; at best, it provides you with a sort of account of which particular notes a composer wrote down in the score. Occasionally, however, you can discover an exception. Rafal Blechacz, for instance. He's a young pianist who still hears that silver wind.

"...I can only say that the decline is unfortunate, horrible. People's taste has been decaying. Yet you can still find around the world people, albeit in the minority, who are standard-bearers of culture and beauty."

translated by Hilda Hearne in these liner notes

[asin]B0085U0GYW[/asin]

(George and others, the Amazon review addresses sound quality and remastering in far greater detail than I could.)

[George]

(George and others, the Amazon review addresses sound quality and remastering in far greater detail than I could.)

Thanks, Brian. I am more than happy with the SQ of my Nonesuch copy.

[Mandryka]

His full remark: "Perhaps it is a generational phenomenon. Today, the technical level, as well as craft integrity, is increasing. When you listen to some of the gentlemen from the past century, they seem like complete amateurs in comparison. Naturally, this does not apply to all of them, but sometimes you marvel at how the person managed to attain global fame. This cannot happen today. Today, you can hear dozens, hundreds of young performers who don't make mistakes. They are able to play everything. That is: they play all the notes. And many a time it doesn't actually say anything to you; at best, it provides you with a sort of account of which particular notes a composer wrote down in the score. Occasionally, however, you can discover an exception. Rafal Blechacz, for instance. He's a young pianist who still hears that silver wind.

"...I can only say that the decline is unfortunate, horrible. People's taste has been decaying. Yet you can still find around the world people, albeit in the minority, who are standard-bearers of culture and beauty."

translated by Hilda Hearne in these liner notes

[asin]B0085U0GYW[/asin]

(George and others, the Amazon review addresses sound quality and remastering in far greater detail than I could.)

"People's tastes have been decaying." It's just bollocks.

He seems to think that creative communicative Chopin playing has declined but that's nonsense. I could easily make a list of 10 or maybe 20 post 1950s Chopinists whose music making is just brimming over with interesting and original ideas.

[Brian]

He seems to think that creative communicative Chopin playing has declined but that's nonsense. I could easily make a list of 10 or maybe 20 post 1950s Chopinists whose music making is just brimming over with interesting and original ideas.

Interesting and original ideas? Just in my own non-comprehensive library, and just from the last 10-15 years, Gekic, Sudbin, Zimerman, Tharaud (waltzes), Pollini. If anything, I'd say the shoe's on the other foot now: of recent pianists, I find those who prettify and soften their Chopin, in the mistaken belief that poetry always means slowness, to be the cliched and unoriginal ones. I'm thinking of the likes of Lortie, Koroliov, Barenboim. I recently reviewed a disc by a Chopin Competition loser (made it to the third round and thus earned a CD release) - the dry technical perfection was there, but Chopin players today also learn that they must follow the "correct style" so they treat nocturnes and longer works like paintings in a museum to be cooed and sighed over. One can have both poetry and life; just ask Moravec!

[Dancing Divertimentian]

His full remark: "Perhaps it is a generational phenomenon. Today, the technical level, as well as craft integrity, is increasing. When you listen to some of the gentlemen from the past century, they seem like complete amateurs in comparison. Naturally, this does not apply to all of them, but sometimes you marvel at how the person managed to attain global fame. This cannot happen today. Today, you can hear dozens, hundreds of young performers who don't make mistakes. They are able to play everything. That is: they play all the notes. And many a time it doesn't actually say anything to you; at best, it provides you with a sort of account of which particular notes a composer wrote down in the score. Occasionally, however, you can discover an exception. Rafal Blechacz, for instance. He's a young pianist who still hears that silver wind.

"...I can only say that the decline is unfortunate, horrible. People's taste has been decaying. Yet you can still find around the world people, albeit in the minority, who are standard-bearers of culture and beauty."

translated by Hilda Hearne in these liner notes

Oh, I see. That mythical "time was..." argument again. It's an argument that's never held water at anytime in the past and it doesn't hold water now.

I'm surprised to even see it rear its ugly head again on GMG.

So, as I see it, no one since those dead guys has had any idea how to play Chopin. Generation after generation of professional musicians since the dead guy era have managed little except to prove just how right the dead guy era was.

This is so patronizing it's nauseating.

'Nuff said.

[Opus106]

Here's a video that I came across recently and liked. Maria João Pires pops into a concert hall just as Frans Brüggen and his orchestra are wrapping things up after a rehearsal of a piano concerto. Pleasantries exchanged, Pires sits at the pianoforte and immediately begins playing Chopin, bringing the activities around her to a halt for awhile.

http://www.youtube.com/v/n0E3iqttI_E

[Wakefield]

Here's a video that I came across recently and liked. Maria João Pires pops into a concert hall just as Frans Brüggen and his orchestra are wrapping things up after a rehearsal of a piano concerto. Pleasantries exchanged, Pires sits at the pianoforte and immediately begins playing Chopin, bringing the activities around her to a halt for awhile.

http://www.youtube.com/v/n0E3iqttI_E

To watch this video suddenly recalled to me this Capote's profile of Bogart:

If one listens to any man's vocabulary, it will be noticed that certain key-to-character words recur. With Bogart, whose pungent personal thesaurus was by and large unspeakably unprintable, "bum" and "professional" were two such verbal signposts. A most moral -- by a bit exaggerating you might say "prim" -- man, he employed "professional" as a platinum medal to be distributed among persons whose behavior he sanctioned; "bum," the reverse of an accolade, conveyed, when spoken by him, almost scarifying displeasure. "My old man," he once remarked of his father, who had been a reputable New York doctor, "died ten thousand dollars in debt, and I had to pay off every cent. A guy who doesn't leave his wife and kids provided for, he's a bum." Bums, too, were guys who cheated on their wives, cheated on their taxes, and all whiners, gossipists, most politicians, most writers, women who Drank, women who were scornful of men who Drank; but the bum true-blue was any fellow who shirked his job, was not, in meticulous style, a "pro" in his work. God knows he was. Never mind that he might play poker until dawn and swallow a brandy for breakfast; he was always on time on the set, in make-up and letter-perfect in his part (forever the same part, to be sure, still there is nothing more difficult to interestingly sustain than repetition). No, there was never a mite of bum-hokum about Bogart; he was an actor without theories (well, one: that he should be highly paid), without temper but not without temperament; and because he understood that discipline was the better part of artistic survival, he lasted, he left his mark.

The key word is professional, of course. 

[Brahmsian]

Just finished listening to the marvelous Chopin Piano Concertos.  I cannot believe it has been since June 2008 since I've listened to these!   

Excellent performance here, with Bella Davidovich, London Symphony Orchestra and Sir Neville Marriner conducting.  Philips label.  Sorry, can't find the cover for this one. 


And now, I'm on to the Piano Sonatas, with Idel Biret on the piano.  I know there are many Biret detractors, but I love these performances!

[asin]B00001YVCP[/asin]

[Todd]

Oh, I see. That mythical "time was..." argument again. It's an argument that's never held water at anytime in the past and it doesn't hold water now.

I must agree.  I mean, Andrea Lucchesini and Yukio Yokoyama, while no longer young punks, seem to know a thing or two about playing Chopin.  Benjamin Grosvenor, too, and he is a young punk.  Oh well, the good old days, and all that.

[mn dave]

And now, I'm on to the Piano Sonatas, with Idel Biret on the piano.  I know there are many Biret detractors, but I love these performances!

Nothing wrong with Biret.

[Todd]

Nothing wrong with Biret.

Maybe not in Chopin, but in LvB . . .

[George]

Just finished listening to the marvelous Chopin Piano Concertos.

Those slow movements are to die for!

His full remark: "Perhaps it is a generational phenomenon. Today, the technical level, as well as craft integrity, is increasing. When you listen to some of the gentlemen from the past century, they seem like complete amateurs in comparison. Naturally, this does not apply to all of them, but sometimes you marvel at how the person managed to attain global fame. This cannot happen today. Today, you can hear dozens, hundreds of young performers who don't make mistakes. They are able to play everything. That is: they play all the notes. And many a time it doesn't actually say anything to you; at best, it provides you with a sort of account of which particular notes a composer wrote down in the score.

Up to this point, I am in full agreement. In fact, I could have written those very words myself. It's kinda spooky.

[George]

Maybe not in Chopin, but in LvB . . .

Or Rachmaninoff. The kettle never reaches a full boil.

[mn dave]

Maybe not in Chopin, but in LvB . . .

I have no Beethoven performed by Biret, and will keep it that way.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

I must agree.  I mean, Andrea Lucchesini and Yukio Yokoyama, while no longer young punks, seem to know a thing or two about playing Chopin.  Benjamin Grosvenor, too, and he is a young punk.  Oh well, the good old days, and all that.

Haven't heard these. Thanks for mentioning them, Todd.

On the young punk side I enjoy Momo Kodama and Tharaud (in the waltzes).

As far as older farts but still going strong I enjoy Freire (in the nocturnes) and perhaps a dark horse entry, Paik in the concertos (better here than in his Beethoven).