The New Classical

[MN Dave]

that's why it's called bubblegum culture, right? It's like chewing bubble gum, gets old after a short time and you look for another piece that's almost exactly the same, gets old and you throw it away.

Snobs.

[Demonic Clarinet]

yeah, what a great culture...... glorify partying, getting drunk and doing anything you can see, what greatness!

In which case the issue is with the people listening to the music, not necessarily the music itself. Regardless, the music in the youtube link hardly glorifies anything like that.

It's like chewing bubble gum, gets old after a short time and you look for another piece that's almost exactly the same, gets old and you throw it away.

Eh. While mainstream songs tend to get old rapidly, I definitely wouldn't say the next ones are similar.

[greg]

In which case the issue is with the people listening to the music, not necessarily the music itself. Regardless, the music in the youtube link hardly glorifies anything like that.

good thing, too..... nice clip, entertaining and original. They need more of that instead of what they have now on the radio! (as i said before) 

[Demonic Clarinet]

I would argue there's nothing wrong with any music that glorifies anything...it's fine as long as people like to listen to it. Problems arise when people begin emulating what they hear...in which case the problem is people being stupid, not the music.

[gmstudio]

glorify partying, getting drunk and doing anything you can see, what greatness!

Oh, so we've turned this into a Mozart thread, now?

...or a Karajan thread?

...or a Toscanini thread?

...or a typical-professional-orchestra-low-brass-section thread?

[jochanaan]

For a half-season or so, I was riding to orchestra practice with the principal bass player.  This 30-year-old guy was a monster on the orchestral bass--when we played Beethoven's symphonies he rejoiced that he'd finally got a "good bass part"! --but he was also a heavy-metal player.  The CDs he played on the way to and from rehearsals had challenging harmonies, frequent meter changes and other rhythmic excitement, and deep, poetic lyrics.  They convinced me that many metal musicians are really good.

I have found this anew in the last few years since I have played more and more non-classical music.  Many local musicians playing in clubs are both talented and serious about their art.  I've heard rappers rapping on city buses; those raps were relevant, original and hypnotic, and not once have I heard the m--f-- word from a street rapper. And didn't a lot of our younger GMG members get their start in metal?

This alienation between classical and "other" is not a good thing.  We need each other.

[MN Dave]

This alienation between classical and "other" is not a good thing.  We need each other.

Bravo.

[greg]

I've heard rappers rapping on city buses; those raps were relevant, original and hypnotic, and not once have I heard the m--f-- word from a street rapper.

well, that's exceptional, i applaud whoever you heard

And didn't a lot of our younger GMG members get their start in metal?

the stuff i got my start in was sorta metal, more specifically instrumental rock. It's stuff that normally isn't played on the radio since it doesn't appeal to the masses who want music about drugs and hos, or screaming about killing people, or whatever.
The only problems i have with mainstream popular music is when in certain genres often you hear certain stuff...... and the other main problem is, i just find it so so so so so so so so so so so boring 

This alienation between classical and "other" is not a good thing.  We need each other.

yep, it's just very very very different from most "normal" stuff

[Josquin des Prez]

People listen to it because they enjoy it. You and I listen to classical because...wait for it...we enjoy it.

Nonsense. I listen to classical music because it's greater then anything else on the planet. More to the point, it's music that touches on the transcendental, as befitting civilized beings, not thrill-seeking buffoons lavishing in stone-age drivel.

[Greta]

That clip is great. The violin player is awesome, and it's a nice composition they have come up with. Very clever pop quotes, fun stuff.

It's not classical though, and not even the "new classical" - those lines are being blurred, some of the most interesting and creative music out there now almost defies classification.

For a half-season or so, I was riding to orchestra practice with the principal bass player.  This 30-year-old guy was a monster on the orchestral bass--when we played Beethoven's symphonies he rejoiced that he'd finally got a "good bass part"! Grin--but he was also a heavy-metal player.  The CDs he played on the way to and from rehearsals had challenging harmonies, frequent meter changes and other rhythmic excitement, and deep, poetic lyrics.  They convinced me that many metal musicians are really good.

This anecdote reminds me of some encounters I've had at Last.fm. (That's the service that records the tags of what you listen to, on your PC, and does things with the stats like matching you up with others with common listening interests.) I know a couple of Finnish orchestral musicians from there, same age, that listen to mostly metal and jazz, and contemporary classical.

I listen to many genres of music, but on my computer mostly classical, and much contemporary music, minimalist, etc. I started to notice a cadre of people I "matched" up with at Last.fm that were listening to Radiohead along with their Reich, Metallica with their Mahler. Which got me thinking. What is the common thread here?

Well, what Jochanaan mentioned is true. Complexity and musical depth can be found in a lot of places, and certainly in jazz, and some metal too. Anyone here familiar with Dream Theater? That's some impressive stuff. Some of what's going there is really high-level, and the players are insane, seriously - they can shred. Yeah, a lot of that, and the musicians, really are extremely good. Because they play in a different, more freeform style, doesn't make it any less valid musicianship.

I would myself listen to more metal, if it just weren't so loud, and always so angsty....sheesh... 

[Demonic Clarinet]

Nonsense. I listen to classical music because it's greater then anything else on the planet. More to the point, it's music that touches on the transcendental, as befitting civilized beings, not thrill-seeking buffoons lavishing in stone-age drivel.

Explain how it is "great" if not because of the fact that people enjoy listening to it.

[jjfan]

I like this one better http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjA5faZF1A8&feature=related.   
   

[Josquin des Prez]

This alienation between classical and "other" is not a good thing.  We need each other.

Kinda like hanging a toddler's drawing next to a Da Vinci, right? In the end, children are so creative! Who are we to tell them their work lack in technique or true maturity? Who cares about greatness, it's such an authoritarian idea anyway, fit only for stuffy old men! Who needs it? Go on children, express yourselves, do your own thing, don't listen to your parents, a great future awaits you where everything is 'fun' and 'entertainment', who cares if society plunges into vulgar mediocrity, ugliness and total ignorance? All it matters is the self, everything is valid, follow your emotions and you can never do wrong.

[MN Dave]

Kinda like hanging a toddler's drawing next to a Da Vinci, right? In the end, children are so creative! Who are we to tell them their work lack in technique or true maturity? Who cares about greatness, it's such an authoritarian idea anyway, fit only for stuffy old men! Who needs it? Go on children, express yourselves, do your own thing, don't listen to your parents, a great future awaits you where everything is 'fun' and 'entertainment', who cares if society plunges into vulgar mediocrity, ugliness and total ignorance? All it matters is the self, everything is valid, follow your emotions and you can never do wrong.

Don't get your groove on much?

[karlhenning]

Kinda like hanging a toddler's drawing next to a Da Vinci, right? In the end, children are so creative! Who are we to tell them their work lack in technique or true maturity? Who cares about greatness, it's such an authoritarian idea anyway, fit only for stuffy old men! Who needs it? Go on children, express yourselves, do your own thing, don't listen to your parents, a great future awaits you where everything is 'fun' and 'entertainment', who cares if society plunges into vulgar mediocrity, ugliness and total ignorance? All it matters is the self, everything is valid, follow your emotions and you can never do wrong.

Charming little strawman you're poking at there!

[Josquin des Prez]

Charming little strawman you're poking at there!

Come on. That's what the argument amounts to anyway, even if he doesn't know that.

[Kullervo]

The New Classical

Normally I would consider this too fatuous to even merit refutation, but I feel that is too easy and essentially putting one's head in the sand.

Classical enthusiasts have often attached classical values to popular music. Of course they mean well, but I feel that this is mere pandering. It reminds me of the narrator in Gide's Immoralist -- the intellectual that mistakes the brutality of the proletariat for vitality.

While it would be altruistic to say "music is music" and equate Classical with popular music, I do not feel this is right, nor do I feel we should revert to a sort of Adornian mindset and use the one as a stick to beat the other. The former I feel encourages a culture of mediocrity, while the latter only provokes ire and causes anyone who would potentially become interested in Classical music to view it as an elitist country club.

Even so, that this is taken by people as High Art belies to me a sorry state of affairs.

[EmpNapoleon]

It reminds me of the narrator in Gide's Immoralist -- the intellectual that mistakes the brutality of the proletariat for vitality.

He was mistaken?

[Josquin des Prez]

while the latter only provokes ire and causes anyone who would potentially become interested in Classical music to view it as an elitist country club.

Only because children are encouraged to be rancorous and disrespectful to anything that doesn't strike their ego. The truth of the matter however is that pandering is a sign of weakness, and children have no respect for that but only contempt. Parents today are taught to seek their children's approval rather then demand respect and we are doing the same thing from a broader social perspective.

[orbital]

I am just glad that I will be able to experience the arts that I care about in my lifetime. And I am not one bit bitter about the pop, bubblegum, partying culture, whatever you want to call it. Partying is fun, drinking (if done responsibly) is fun. So is pop music. What is so wrong and difficult to understand about people having fun? Why the objection?


Remember that life is change.  You do not have to adapt to it but it is our ability to do so that has sustained our partial domination on this earth. Nothing is forever, and certainly not classical music (500 years out of a total of 20,000+ years of culture?). It's heydays are already gone. We should just be glad that we are born in a time where we were lucky enough to experience it.

I think the title piece is very original. I would not buy a CD of it, but I have bought DJ Shadow's output, and I think he is an amazing artist.