Guns

[WI Dan]

By the way, you omitted two of the quotes from my earlier post, above. 
This was one of them:

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
- Edmund Burke

I don't believe that one is outdated, either.  Do you?

I don't either, but that one is not specifically related to guns.

It applies to the situation we're talking about here.  In real life, the good guys need guns for self-defense and to protect their inalienable God-given rights.

[Florestan]

It applies to the situation we're talking about here.  In real life, the good guys need guns for self-defense and to protect their inalienable God-given rights.

Fine but I reiterate my question, in case you missed it: since the vast majority of citizens don't own any guns, what prevents the Dutch or French or Norwegian government from becoming tyrannical?

[WI Dan]

I have a question for you, if I may: since the vast majority of citizens don't own any guns, what prevents the Dutch or French or Norwegian government from becoming tyrannical?

NOTHING. 

You are at their mercy, just as the disarmed Jews were, in Nazi Germany.  That didn't work out well, even though Hitler came to power legally.  You might want to think about that.  I'm on your side, friend.  Really.

[Florestan]

NOTHING. 

You are at their mercy

Then how come that for almost 60 years no government of these countries has ever tried to infringe upon their citizens' rights? How come that no unpopular, corrupt or vile politician has ever tried to grab the power as dictator?

I'm on your side, friend.  Really.

So am I.

[WI Dan]

Then how come that for almost 60 years no government of these countries has ever tried to infringe upon their citizens' rights? How come that no unpopular, corrupt or vile politician has ever tried to grab the power as dictator?

Infringe?

They took your guns, fer cryin' out loud!!
I'm not familiar enough with your situation over there to know what else they've taken from you.

Who knows what year 61 will bring?  I don't like to think about it, and I don't even live there.  If it really goes bad, what could you and your people do about it?

I think I'll put on some Mozart, now.      

[DavidW]

How come that no unpopular, corrupt or vile politician has ever tried to grab the power as dictator?

Are you still fixating on that non-issue?  Pathetic, I addressed that yesterday.  Learn from your mistakes and move on.

[Florestan]

Are you still fixating on that non-issue?  Pathetic, I addressed that yesterday.  

You addressed nothing of substance. Your posts are a mish-mash of innuendos and insults.

[DavidW]

You addressed nothing of substance. Your posts are a mish-mash of innuendos and insults.

You are right, I have indeed addressed nothing of substance.  I'm glad you realized that on your own.

[Florestan]

You are right, I have indeed addressed nothing of substance.  I'm glad you realized that on your own.

If you believe that capitalizing on one's use of English as a foreign language makes you smarter than you are, you're wrong. Cheap irony doesn't impress me in the least. I'm still waiting for some sensible post of yours addressing the question of why European governments which strictly regulate and practically forbid the private ownership of guns have not turned into dictatorships.

[DavidW]

If you believe that capitalizing on one's use of English as a foreign language makes you smarter than you are, you're wrong. Cheap irony doesn't impress me in the least. I'm still waiting for some sensible post of yours addressing the question of why European governments which strictly regulate and practically forbid the private ownership of guns have not turned into dictatorships.

Now you sound EXACTLY like Newman!  He uses the same tactics of pushing topics onto strange tangents and then demanding counterarguments!

[DavidW]

Okay look Florestan, I'm just playing with you.  I'm pushing your buttons because I noticed that if I say like one thing you fly off the handle and write long tirades.  I thought you would have figured it out by now.  I apologize for trolling, and being a jerk.  I didn't think it would go this far.

[Gurn Blanston]

OK, gentlemen, let's advance the cause a bit. Nothing to be gained from hypotheticals, it will only lead to disaster; I can foresee dueling pistols at 10 paces... 

(wouldn't THAT be ironic )

[Florestan]

Okay look Florestan, I'm just playing with you.  I'm pushing your buttons because I noticed that if I say like one thing you fly off the handle and write long tirades. 

LOL... I was just finishing a tirade right now! 

I thought you would have figured it out by now. 

I didn't, really! When I get involved in a controversy, I let myself carried away (too) easily...  0:)

I apologize for trolling, and being a jerk.  I didn't think it would go this far.

Okay, apologies accepted, no hard feelings and I too apologize if I overreacted. But now I am left with a big dilemma: should I take you seriously in the future or not? 

[ChamberNut]

Even though I may not agree with the gun mentality in America, what is a bigger issue and much much more serious are fast food chains and the obesity epidemic.  But, that's an entirely different issue, obviously. 

[karlhenning]

I don't either, but that one is not specifically related to guns.

Point.

Or, as the maxim may be applied to guns, it does not 'belong' to one 'side' or the other.

[WI Dan]

allowing gun ownership in urban areas increases the death toll considerably

Maybe that's how it works in your country (??), but that's not how it works here, in the U.S.A.
Excerpt Source

More Guns, Less Crime (Again) in 2007

Gun Ownership at All-Time High, Violent Crime Near 30-Year Low

Over the last two decades, many "gun control" laws have been eliminated or made less restrictive at the federal, state, and local levels. Numbers of privately-owned guns and Right-to-Carry states have risen to all-time highs. Every step of the way, "gun control" groups predicted violent crime would increase. Instead, violent crime decreased dramatically.

Less "Gun Control": The Brady Act’s handgun waiting period expired in 1998, in favor of the NRA-supported National Instant Check System. Some states thereafter eliminated waiting periods or purchase permit requirements. The federal "assault weapon" ban expired in 2004. Since 1987, 30 states have eliminated prohibitory or restrictive carry laws, in favor of Right-to-Carry (RTC) laws; there are now 40 RTC states. All states have hunter protection laws, 46 have range protection laws, 47 prohibit local jurisdictions from imposing gun laws more restrictive than state law, 44 protect the right to arms in their constitutions, and Congress and 33 states have prohibited frivolous lawsuits against the firearm industry.1 Studies by or for Congress, the Congressional Research Service, the Library of Congress, the National Institute of Justice, the National Academy of Sciences, and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention have found no evidence that "gun control" reduces crime.2

More Guns: The number of new guns rises by about 4.5 million every year.3 There are 250+ million privately-owned firearms in the United States.4

Less Violent Crime: Since 1991, the nation’s total violent crime rate is down 38 percent. (Murder is down 43 percent; rape, 29 percent; robbery, 46 percent; and aggravated assault, 35 percent.) Violent crime dropped every year from 1991-2004, to a 30-year low; increased slightly in 2005 and 2006; and decreased to nearly the 2004 level in 2007. Every year since 2002, the violent crime rate has been lower than anytime since 1974. Every year since 1999, the murder rate has been lower than anytime since 1966. States with RTC laws, compared to the rest of the country, have lower violent crime rates on average: total violent crime by 24 percent, murder, 28 percent; robbery, 50 percent; and aggravated assault, 11 percent.5

_________________________________________________

Fewer Guns = Less Crime?

.............. Watch and enjoy this short ABC Network News Clip.

(A 30-second ad preceeds the news story.)

_________________________________________________

Still, allowing gun ownership in rural areas - just to reassure Gurn! - is also very common in many European countries. Though the general assumption is that people that go hunting for game do not need automated machine guns....

Totally irrelevant, Que.  I don't know of anyone who hunts with a "machine gun".  Do you?  It's not a legal activity here.  In fact, the private ownership of machine guns has been very severely restricted in the U.S.A. since 1934.  That being said, our 2nd Amendment (the Right of the People to Keep and Bear Arms) has nothing to do with pheasant hunting.  

But even in rural areas, gun ownership does lead to accidents with guns (cleaning, kids, people accidentaly shooting each other during hunting..) and increased suicide rates*

News Flash!   Accidents happen, and some people die while pursuing their favorite sports and pastimes.  Deal with it.


Hunting is safer than:

hiking/climbing
swimming
bicycling
boating
canoeing
kayaking
rafting
snow skiing
water skiing
horseback riding  


That's right, ... in this country, there are far fewer fatalities related to hunting than there are to those other activities.  My guess is that most folks are not aware of that.  Do you think there might be an anti-gun agenda at work in the press?

Personally, I hope the government does not institute a ban on swimming pools, in the interest of public safety, nor "for the sake of the children".

_________________________________________________

* As for your supposition that "gun ownership leads to increased suicide rates", ... again, the facts don't seem to support your claim.  Excerpt Source

Gun Suicides

The full body of relevant studies indicates that firearm availability measures are significantly and positively associated with rates of firearm suicide, but have no significant association with rates of total suicide.

Of thirteen studies, nine found a significant association between gun levels and rates of gun suicide, but only one found a significant association between gun levels and rates of total suicides. The only study to find a measure of "gun availability" significantly associated with total suicide...used a measure of gun availability known to be invalid.

This pattern of results supports the view that where guns are less common, there is complete substitution of other methods of suicide, and that, while gun levels influence the choice of suicide method, they have no effect on the number of people who die in suicides.

As further evidence that gun ownership is not correlated with total suicide rates see international violent death rate table. For example, Japan, where gun ownership is extremely low (less than 1% of households), total suicide is higher than in a high-gun ownership country like the United States.

[DavidRoss]

I commend you for trying, Dan.  Unfortunately, as you doubtless know, this is one of those matters in which all too many bigots are so certain of the self-righteous superiority of their beliefs that they cannot be bothered to investigate the facts...which are far too compelling to admit a reasonable difference of opinion among the informed. 

[Gurn Blanston]

Mhmmh lots of insults flying around here... That's a pity. Could we keep it civil?

Anyway - facts? (Pdf)

BTW I did not suggest that wide availability of guns leads to an increase of crime in general (not that it leads to a decrease either), just a higher fatality rate.

Nor do I have any objections against hunting, nor did I suggest that it was a very dangerous activity - at least not more dangerous than many other activities.

And that concludes my participation here.

Q

Well, you DO know that the rules of the game include banishment to moronhood if you are not in complete agreement? It is a transgression of the unwritten law...

[karlhenning]

Dinsdale!

[MN Dave]

Screw guns! What about texting while driving? Worse than drunks!