All other composers are inferior to Beethoven

[Haffner]

Actually, I have no problem at all separating them.

I often think of Wagner as having taken the harmonic-daredevil approach of LvB's late SQs further; searching to attain an even more personal form of expression. It's up to the individual listener to determine whether he succeeded.

[marvinbrown]

Actually, I have no problem at all separating them.



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Now playing: Wiener Philharmoniker / Riccardo Muti - D 417 Symphony #4 in c - 2nd mvmt - Andante

  Ok but in terms of musical development, if not Wagner then what's the next step after Beethoven's 9th Symphony?  Surely you do not believe that Beethoven's 9th Symphony is as far as Western music progressed?  Part of the problem that I am having  with the title of this thread "all other composers are inferior to Beethoven" is Wagner's and other composers' undeniable contribution to Western music.  In addition if we were to take the title of this thread seriously it disturbingly implies that Beethoven is as good as it gets and in a sense Beethoven represents the end of musical development as we know it.  This is simply not true. If it had not been for Wagner, atonality (Wagner's Tristan Cord) in music might not have been conceived as soon as it has, Wagner also pre-empted cinema music which is a very big part of our western music culture and so on. How can one argue that Wagner is inferior to Beethoven! And let's not forget about R. Strauss who found his own musical voice, contributed to dissonance (ELEKTRA) in music and others as well. 

  marvin

[Haffner]

  Ok but in terms of musical development, if not Wagner then what's the next step after Beethoven's 9th Symphony?  Surely you do not believe that Beethoven's 9th Symphony is as far as Western music progressed?  Part of the problem that I am having  with the title of this thread "all other composers are inferior to Beethoven" is Wagner's and other composers' undeniable contribution to Western music.  In addition if we were to take the title of this thread seriously it disturbingly implies that Beethoven is as good as it gets and in a sense Beethoven represents the end of musical development as we know it.  This is simply not true. If it had not been for Wagner, atonality (Wagner's Tristan Cord) in music might not have been conceived as soon as it has, Wagner also pre-empted cinema music which is a very big part of our western music culture and so on. How can one argue that Wagner is inferior to Beethoven! And let's not forget about R. Strauss who found his own musical voice, contributed to dissonance (ELEKTRA) in music and others as well. 

  marvin

Of course you have very valid points, Marvin. I most definitely see Wagner as being probably the most significant composer since LvB...but I feel kind of dumb rating things this way, Certainly, Russia and Austria continued to contribute monumentally important composers. Maybe I should shut up now (I may already be too late).

Death to Tiger Beat threads!

[marvinbrown]

Of course you have very valid points, Marvin. I most definitely see Wagner as being probably the most significant composer since LvB...but I feel kind of dumb rating things this way, Certainly, Russia and Austria continued to contribute monumentally important composers. Maybe I should shut up now (I may already be too late).

Death to Tiger Beat threads!

  I agree this thread has gone far enough!  This will be my last post on this thread!

  marvin

[BachQ]

  I agree this thread has gone far enough!  This will be my last post on this thread!
  marvin

Marvin,

Who is your favorite opera composer?

[longears]

  Ok but in terms of musical development, if not Wagner then what's the next step after Beethoven's 9th Symphony?  Surely you do not believe that Beethoven's 9th Symphony is as far as Western music progressed?  Part of the problem that I am having  with the title of this thread "all other composers are inferior to Beethoven" is Wagner's and other composers' undeniable contribution to Western music.  In addition if we were to take the title of this thread seriously it disturbingly implies that Beethoven is as good as it gets and in a sense Beethoven represents the end of musical development as we know it.  This is simply not true. If it had not been for Wagner, atonality (Wagner's Tristan Cord) in music might not have been conceived as soon as it has, Wagner also pre-empted cinema music which is a very big part of our western music culture and so on. How can one argue that Wagner is inferior to Beethoven! And let's not forget about R. Strauss who found his own musical voice, contributed to dissonance (ELEKTRA) in music and others as well. 

(a) The title of this thread is not intended seriously but wryly, to attract and promote discussion.
(b) Have others noticed the inverse relation between Wagner worship and a sense of humor?
(c) Next you guys will be claiming that Wagner also invented Lederhosen, peanut butter, and the drive-up fast-food window.
(d) One needn't argue that Wagner is inferior to Beethoven; it's self evident.
(e) It's great that you guys enjoy those interminally ponderous and self-important "music dramas" (drama?  where?).  Others prefer Rogers & Hammerstein--but they don't usually go around beating the drum for their heroes as the greatest thing since Beethoven...or sliced bread.

[jwinter]

LOL!  Post of the day

[MN Dave]

In addition if we were to take the title of this thread seriously it disturbingly implies that Beethoven is as good as it gets and in a sense Beethoven represents the end of musical development as we know it.

What a revoltin' development. 

[MN Dave]

(d) One needn't argue that Wagner is inferior to Beethoven; it's self evident.

Indeed.

[Don]

(c) Next you guys will be claiming that Wagner also invented Lederhosen, peanut butter, and the drive-up fast-food window.

No, but he did invent the stun gun.

[marvinbrown]

(a) The title of this thread is not intended seriously but wryly, to attract and promote discussion.
(b) Have others noticed the inverse relation between Wagner worship and a sense of humor?
(c) Next you guys will be claiming that Wagner also invented Lederhosen, peanut butter, and the drive-up fast-food window.
(d) One needn't argue that Wagner is inferior to Beethoven; it's self evident.
(e) It's great that you guys enjoy those interminally ponderous and self-important "music dramas" (drama?  where?).  Others prefer Rogers & Hammerstein--but they don't usually go around beating the drum for their heroes as the greatest thing since Beethoven...or sliced bread.

   

[PerfectWagnerite]

No, but he did invent the stun gun.

Really? I thought making someone sit through Parsifal without a sandwich would be punishment enough.

[Don]

Really? I thought making someone sit through Parsifal without a sandwich would be punishment enough.

Well, I don't need to eat every two or three hours.  No ulcers on this guy.

[M forever]

I thought if you have ulcers, you can't eat. Please clarify.

[Don]

I thought if you have ulcers, you can't eat. Please clarify.

I can only speak for the ulcer I had in my 20's.  Relatively frequent eating of small amounts per session was my doctor's advice and it served me pretty well.  Funny thing, the ulcer vanished when my daughter was born; it returned when she became a teenager.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Really? I thought making someone sit through Parsifal without a sandwich would be punishment enough.

I would remove the "without a sandwich" part.

[BachQ]

   

Hey ....... Marvin is BACK .........

[jochanaan]

...If it had not been for Wagner, atonality (Wagner's Tristan Cord) in music might not have been conceived as soon as it has,

Wagner got all his best ideas from Liszt. Even the Tristan chord occurred in Liszt first.

Wagner also pre-empted cinema music which is a very big part of our western music culture and so on.

I would argue that Rossini, Berlioz, and Meyerbeer preceded him.

How can one argue that Wagner is inferior to Beethoven! And let's not forget about R. Strauss who found his own musical voice, contributed to dissonance (ELEKTRA) in music and others as well. 

Aren't you forgetting those crazy Jews Mahler and Schoenberg?

However, since I sense you're being serious, I feel I must respond seriously to some of your assertions.  It would be very difficult to assert seriously that Wagner was inferior to Beethoven (except in symphonic form ), and I for one am not doing so.  But without Beethoven, I'm sure that Wagner would have been a different composer.  (So would Berlioz, Mendelssohn, Liszt, Brahms and every other major 19th-century composer except possibly Chopin, Glinka and the Russian Five.  They all "stood on Beethoven's shoulders.")  This is not to lessen Wagner's remarkable synthesis of his predecessors' methods, nor his deep impact on contemporary and later musicians.  But Beethoven's synthesis is equally remarkable, and far deeper in its impact.

[lukeottevanger]

Wagner got all his best ideas from Liszt. Even the Tristan chord occurred in Liszt first.

In Mozart earlier (E flat Quartet)! Where is it in Liszt?

[jochanaan]

In Mozart earlier (E flat Quartet)! Where is it in Liszt?

Actually, I mis-typed.  The Tristan chord itself does not occur in Liszt's song Ich möchte hingehn, but except for the D# being a D in the first chord, the notes in one bar of the song are exactly the same as in bars 2-3 of the Tristan prelude.  (Information from Harold C. Schonberg, The Great Conductors.)

And I hadn't known about the Mozart occurrence!  Thanks.  I suspect that the chord itself occurred many times before Wagner chose to put it in such a prominent position.