Scene from Amadeus

[Bunny]

My favourite scene is the one where Mozart is to meet the Emperor for the first time and Salieri has composed this march of welcome which the Emperor plays rather haplessly. Then Mozart plays it by memory and starts improvising on the piece, ending up with "Non piu andrai" from Figaro.
As Salieri in the next scene puts it to Our saviour on the cross: "- Grazie, Signore."

Jane Seymour as Stanzi would have been something. Berridge is good under the table before the Gran Partita, though.

I can think of any number of actresses and non- actresses who are great under a table.

[Maciek]

Maybe because it tells the truth?

Still, I'd much rather the movie ended with Mozart gently dissolving into thin air - a bit like Yoda in Return of the Jedi. To the strains of the Requiem of course.

Mozart dead? Never.

[zamyrabyrd]

Where to start...it distorts Mozart's character, he was not this continually asinine school boy. I don't think there is evidence that his father became a source for fear. It possibly makes his composition look too casual and easy. The film makes the point that he works hard, but it undermines the concept...
There is no evidence that Salieri had any even marginal involvement with him in his final weeks. His wife was not as portrayed, the idea they call one another 'Wolfie' and 'Stanza' in inane voices generates a tone that also undermines the character of them both. She was bright, a gifted singer and hardworking. The children are pretty much kept out of the way.
Mike

From what I read Constanza was pretty air-headed and perhaps not so constant either. Suspicions were cast on her when she went to those watering places without Wolfie. Apart from the other misleading inaccuracies in the film, her mother was a very likely model for the "Queen of the Night". "I'll break the bonds of natur!!" In her later years she became quite an astute business woman making quite a lot of money selling her late husband's works piece by piece.

This may be OT but quite a lot of people became interested in learning Flamenco after seeing Gades' "Carmen" back in the early 90's, me included.

ZB

[Maciek]

This is loosely (very loosely) related to "Constanza's constancy":

I understand the latest (quite plausible) theory about Mozart's death disappearance is that a jealous husband poisoned him. The burial was done "discreetly" because the killer was also a freemason and they didn't want the scandal to surface. Has anyone heard of this? Is it in fact a new theory? I don't remember most of the details, I'm afraid. But I'd know where to find them, if anyone wanted. But I do hope someone else will supply them.

(Hopefully I'm not derailing the thread...?)

[BachQ]

From what I read Constanza was pretty air-headed and perhaps not so constant either. Suspicions were cast on her when she went to those watering places without Wolfie. Apart from the other misleading inaccuracies in the film, her mother was a very likely model for the "Queen of the Night". "I'll break the bonds of natur!!" In her later years she became quite an astute business woman making quite a lot of money selling her late husband's works piece by piece.

This may be OT but quite a lot of people became interested in learning Flamenco after seeing Gades' "Carmen" back in the early 90's, me included.

ZB

Hey, ZB, welcome to the new forum! 

[jochanaan]

This is loosely (very loosely) related to "Constanza's constancy":

I understand the latest (quite plausible) theory about Mozart's death disappearance is that a jealous husband poisoned him. The burial was done "discreetly" because the killer was also a freemason and they didn't want the scandal to surface. Has anyone heard of this? Is it in fact a new theory? I don't remember most of the details, I'm afraid. But I'd know where to find them, if anyone wanted. But I do hope someone else will supply them.

(Hopefully I'm not derailing the thread...?)

Oh, if the Freemasons were involved we'll probably never learn the truth.

[karlhenning]

Well, that more or less presupposes that Mozart was a philanderer.  Do we have any reason to believe so?

[Dancing Divertimentian]

I love the scene in the beginning where Salieri says something like "do you know this piece?"  And his visitor replies "oh yes that's charming!  You wrote that?"  And of course no, it's Mozart.

That is such an emotionally power-packed scene! And it's so brilliantly understated.

It's harmless on the surface yet builds to what amounts to the climax of the entire movie: a metaphorical punch in the gut to the "mediocre" Salieri!

I mentioned that scene to my inlaws once (they had forgotten it) and the collective sigh of sorrow was deafening...

[Maciek]

Well, that more or less presupposes that Mozart was a philanderer.

Not really. The husband was a madman - he killed (or tried to kill, don't remember now) his wife too...

[Haffner]

Maybe because it tells the truth?

A movie can be great for other reasons than historical accuracy.  Indeed, sometimes historical accuracy is deadly dull.

Despite its many historical inaccuracies, or rather poetic licenses, Amadeus is indeed a great film.  Like much great art, it challenges our preconceptions and forces us to look at life, especially artistic life, in a new way.  It is important to recognize, though, that it IS primarily fiction, and to judge it as such.  I have never heard that Peter Schaffer or Milos Forman claimed that the movie was entirely factual.

And it's certainly a much better film than Immortal Beloved, which is no more historically accurate than Amadeus and much less deep and provocative (despite the nudity or near-nudity of its three female leads ).

P.S.  I remember when Jane Seymour was commonly recognized as not only a legendary beauty but a powerful actress.  I would have loved to see that stage Amadeus, and I'd love to see what she's doing now.

Hi, Jochanaan! I actually liked "Immortal Beloved" the more I watched it. Gary Oldman did a great job, in my humble opinion.


For a more "true-to-life" movies about a great composer, check out "Wagner" with Richard Burton. Although there are historical bungles/deliberate boobs here and there, overall an often very satisfying (though insanely long) film.

[Sergeant Rock]

For a more "true-to-life" movies about a great composer, check out "Wagner" with Richard Burton. Although there are historical bungles/deliberate boobs here and there, overall an often very satisfying (though insanely long) film.

Insanely long? Of course, a film about Wagner could not be anything other than insanely long 

Sarge

[karlhenning]

Insanely long? Of course, a film about Wagner could not be anything other than insanely long 

No further questions, your honor.

[Bunny]

From what I read Constanza was pretty air-headed and perhaps not so constant either. Suspicions were cast on her when she went to those watering places without Wolfie. Apart from the other misleading inaccuracies in the film, her mother was a very likely model for the "Queen of the Night". "I'll break the bonds of natur!!" In her later years she became quite an astute business woman making quite a lot of money selling her late husband's works piece by piece.

This may be OT but quite a lot of people became interested in learning Flamenco after seeing Gades' "Carmen" back in the early 90's, me included.

ZB

Perhaps Constanze's mother was the model for the role, but it was written for her sister, Mozart's first serious crush Aloysia Weber Lange, to sing.  Constanze's family was filled with women who were not discouraged from developing their talents.  Mozart, who was so devoted to his mother and his sister would have felt extremely comfortable in such a milieu.  Constanze did remarry in 1809 to a Danish diplomat, but her life and the life of her husband Nissen were devoted to shoring up the legacy of Mozart's music and making sure that his name and reputation remained in the public eye by arranging concerts, and publishing his works  NIssen himself worked on a biography of Mozart after his retirement, so if someone wants to say that Constanze was inconstant in her marriage to Mozart, they will at least have to admit that after his death she was more than constant.  In fact, I am reminded of Anna Schindler Mahler Gropius Werfel, who wasn't faithful to Gustav during their marriage, but devoted the last part of her life to promoting his music and mythologizing their life together. 

[karlhenning]

The notion of taking characters in a composer's operas, and "finding" the real people known to the composer upon whom the characters are "based" is a fond thing, and is roughly 100% self-indulgent fantasy, 0% responsible cultural history.

[Haffner]

No further questions, your honor.

Please forgive me if I'm mistaken, but I am pretty sure you confided that like Wagner's music mainly in "bits", Karl? If so, you might really enjoy the "Wagner" movie, because the highlights are done quite well (very powerful at times).

I'm not sure you're quite the Germanophile that I am, but there's some lovely footage of Central and "Near Eastern" Europe throughout as well.

It's actually a very good movie!

[Haffner]

The notion of taking characters in a composer's operas, and "finding" the real people known to the composer upon whom the characters are "based" is a fond thing, and is roughly 100% self-indulgent fantasy, 0% responsible cultural history.

This assertion has its merits, in my humble opinion. Perhaps such an undertaking is best endeavored under the banner of "idle speculation".

[karlhenning]

. . . It's actually a very good movie!

I'll have to give it a try someday, Andy!

[knight66]

Sorry, I thought the Wagner film was turgid and I came away with the impression that Burton looked bored through most of it.

Mike

[Haffner]

Sorry, I thought the Wagner film was turgid and I came away with the impression that Burton looked bored through most of it.

Mike

I feel your pain.There is a particularly wretched scene in the movie, a blatant example of repulsively indolent editing: Wagner/Burton goes out on a balcony as the camera pans out; a heroically contemplative phrase from one of his operas plays...and Burton yawns. Whomever decided to leave the yawn in counts as the most idiotic fool in the history of semi-biographical film-making.

However, Burton is often brilliant, particularly during the interactions with Wagner's many women friends, and he is positively extraordinary in the classic party scene.

Bhodges, do you have the 9-hour version? That may at least partly explain your seeing it as turgid;I have the 4-and-a-half-hour vhs, which is quite good. I wouldn't reccomend the original, nine-hour version, as the 4-hour can at times be quite trying.

Otherwise, I definitely reccomend this film. Not just for Burton, but the portrayal of King Ludwig. The music clips sound mostly terrific as well.

[knight66]

It was the full nine yards that I saw, on TV in parts. So perhaps a mere four hours would be a better version, though cutting five hours sounds drastic.

Mike