The Art of Fugue BWV 1080

[Florestan]

But I do not agree with this "overthought" theory. Bach's keyboard works are generally (other than their expressive qualities) intentionally instructive-  from the inventions all the way to the AoF, being models for the pupils to build upon. This does not mean, that they weren't meant to be played - on the contrary it meant, that they were to be performed among others by the pupils.

Quite. Now, what do you think: Are the Goldberg Variations meant ot be played all of them in a row for a stiff and still reverential listening, be it in a live concert or at home? Is the WTC meant to be played ditto?

[Florestan]

you argues

If I were Todd... 

[prémont]

Quite. Now, what do you think: Are the Goldberg Variations meant ot be played all of them in a row for a stiff and still reverential listening, be it in a live concert or at home? Is the WTC meant to be played ditto?

Bach is reported by one of his pupils to have played the entire WTC book I straight through for him at three different events. But this was probably not the usual way, since this pupil mentions it at all.

But this is quite another discussion, which has nothing to do with the scoring of the AoF.

[Florestan]

Bach is reported by one of his pupils to have played the entire WTC book I straight through for him at three different events. But this was probably not the usual way, since this pupil mentions it at all.

The pupil's name? And the source for this?

But this is quite another discussion, which has nothing to do with the scoring of the AoF.

Of course. Nothing like changing the topic when the topic goes astray.

[Ken B]

The whole discussion could be moved to one of the threads devoted to the AoF.

The AofF was not written for any particular thread. It's purely abstract. 

[Mandryka]

Many people think this is how Bach intended the work to be appreciated.  A kind of scholarly/theoretical "text" on the fugue; a treatise to equal, if not surpass, books by Fux and others of his time and before, on the instruction of fugue and counterpoint.

Do you think that Bach intended it to be played inexpressively?

[Mandryka]

My own assumption is that we have no effing idea what the AoF was meant for.

But he wrote out a keyboard version of one of the fugues!

Do you think that we have no idea what Frescobaldi's toccatas were meant for? Or Froberger's ricercari? 

[Florestan]

What I think is that I deeply regret I got myself involved, time and again, in a pointless controversy. Let everyone listen to the AoF, and music in general, whatever way they like.

[prémont]

Too bad for you. 

Or for you. 

[prémont]

The pupil's name? And the source for this?

I have during the last 50 years read quite a lot about Bach and his music, and I do not recall precisely where I read this.

[prémont]

Let everyone listen to the AoF, and music in general, whatever way they like.

Of course. No one here forces anyone to anything, but we are supposedly free to comment each others points of view.

[Mandryka]

The pupil's name? And the source for this?

The pupil was called Heinrich Nicolaus Gerber. The testimony is in his son's writings about his father -- the son was called Ernst Ludwig Gerber. You will find the document in Hans T David and Arthur Mendel, The New Bach Reader , pp. 321-2

[prémont]

The pupil was called Heinrich Nicolaus Gerber. The testimony is in his son's writings about his father -- the son was called Ernst Ludwig Gerber. You will find the document in Hans T David and Arthur Mendel, The New Bach Reader , pp. 321-2

Thanks for the line-up.

[San Antone]

Do you think that Bach intended it to be played inexpressively?

I don't know what Bach intended, nor does anyone.  I am not convinced that the Art of Fugue was just another keyboard Bach wrote like the WTC, though.  It was assembled, some from previous works, and some newly composed during the 1740s, and he was working on it at the time of his death.  But, The Musical Offering is considered the last new work he wrote. For that one it is easy to determine his intentions since he was commissioned by Frederick the Great to write a work on the theme provided, for FtG to play with his friends, which Bach did approximately one year after receiving the theme.

For the Art of Fugue, however, there are enough clues to lead us to think that he had something other in mind than just writing another keyboard work for his students, or even for himself to play at the harpsichord.

At the end of the day, I don't care what his intentions were, or if the AoF was written for the keyboard or not; or really any of the issues we've been discussing. 

I am only interested in the music, how he put it together, and listening to it played under a variety of settings.  For myself, I prefer hearing it done by a group like Fretwork.

[Florestan]

we are supposedly free to comment each others points of view.

Yes, and this is what we do on a regular basis.  Problem is, these recurrent discussions are pointless, nobody is going to convince nobody. I should really disentangle myself from them once and for all.

[mc ukrneal]

Yes, and this is what we do on a regular basis.  Problem is, these recurrent discussions are pointless, nobody is going to convince nobody. I should really disentangle myself from them once and for all.

I simply cannot wrap my head around the idea that some people think there is something wrong or inauthentic about listening to music on different instruments. The reality is that what we call classical music used to be much more like jazz with improvisation and other changes to the music that are now considered heresy (especially odd when you consider that composers often sanctioned those changes or made them themselves at the time!)!

HIP has brought some wonderful things with it. But I think that one of the negatives it brings with it sometimes is inflexibility. I think most composers would welcome their works being interpreted and reinterpreted. I also thinks it's more important to adhere to the spirit rather than the letter of the music. I also don't worry about where the edge is to the music becoming something else. It's never the same anyway (or at least, it shouldn't be). Of course, I write this listening to the Paris Saxophone Quartet playing Bach. So what do I know?

[Mandryka]

nobody is going to convince nobody.

I think you should say "nobody is going to convince me, Andrei."

[Mandryka]

I simply cannot wrap my head around the idea that some people think there is something wrong or inauthentic about listening to music on different instruments. The reality is that what we call classical music used to be much more like jazz with improvisation and other changes to the music that are now considered heresy (especially odd when you consider that composers often sanctioned those changes or made them themselves at the time!)!

HIP has brought some wonderful things with it. But I think that one of the negatives it brings with it sometimes is inflexibility. I think most composers would welcome their works being interpreted and reinterpreted. I also thinks it's more important to adhere to the spirit rather than the letter of the music. I also don't worry about where the edge is to the music becoming something else. It's never the same anyway (or at least, it shouldn't be). Of course, I write this listening to the Paris Saxophone Quartet playing Bach. So what do I know?

Too defensive,

You've erected a straw man to destroy, rather than engage with the interesting questions  - like the consequences of taking a work conceived for solo realisation and moving it to ensemble orchestration.

[Mandryka]

I don't know what Bach intended, nor does anyone.  I am not convinced that the Art of Fugue was just another keyboard Bach wrote like the WTC, though.  It was assembled, some from previous works, and some newly composed during the 1740s, and he was working on it at the time of his death.  But, The Musical Offering is considered the last new work he wrote. For that one it is easy to determine his intentions since he was commissioned by Frederick the Great to write a work on the theme provided, for FtG to play with his friends, which Bach did approximately one year after receiving the theme.

For the Art of Fugue, however, there are enough clues to lead us to think that he had something other in mind than just writing another keyboard work for his students, or even for himself to play at the harpsichord.

At the end of the day, I don't care what his intentions were, or if the AoF was written for the keyboard or not; or really any of the issues we've been discussing. 

I am only interested in the music, how he put it together, and listening to it played under a variety of settings.  For myself, I prefer hearing it done by a group like Fretwork.

Wasn't his final work the unfinished AoF fugue? I've never looked into this question, so you could be right.

[San Antone]

Wasn't his final work the unfinished AoF fugue? I've never looked into this question, so you could be right.

It is like Abbey Road and Let It Be.