Author Topic: Haydn's Haus  (Read 1086637 times)

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Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11520 on: January 15, 2018, 11:31:31 AM »
I take it I should buy this, should I? What else in 80?

Of the 3 in this grop (79-81), 80 was the only one that was ever recorded on PI, until last year when Dantone did all 3 of them. So there are just those 2, and then the new one with Antonini/Basel with 80 & 81, which just came out. So choices are thin on the ground for now:

79 - Dantone
80 - Freiburg Bar. - Dantone - Antonini
81 - Dantone - Antonini

They are Haydn's last symphonies before the Paris ones, and very interesting, which makes the lack of recordings all the harder to understand. :-\

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Online Jo498

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11521 on: January 15, 2018, 01:54:24 PM »
on modern instruments the Orpheus chamber orchestra (DG) and as far as I recall also Adam Fischer (Nimbus/Brilliant) do a good job with 79-81. But this requires to buy three separate discs in the first case and probably a box set in the second.
Struck by the sounds before the sun,
I knew the night had gone.
The morning breeze like a bugle blew
Against the drums of dawn.
(Bob Dylan)

kishnevi

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11522 on: January 15, 2018, 07:07:32 PM »
Email today from LSOLive announced a Haydn CD from Rattle
https://lsolive.lso.co.uk/collections/all-products/products/haydn-an-imaginary-orchestral-journey
Track listing
1. I. Introduction: Representation of Chaos: Largo (From The Creation, Hob.XXI:2)
2. II. The Earthquake: Presto e con tutta la forza (From The Seven Last Words of our Saviour on the Cross, Hob.XX:1)
3. IIIa. Sinfonia: Largo - Vivace assai (From L'isola disabitata, Hob.Ia:13)
4. IIIb. Sinfonia: Allegretto - Vivace (From L'isola disabitata, Hob.Ia:13)
5. IV. Largo (From Symphony No. 64 in A major, Hob.I:64)
6. V. Minuet & Trio (From Symphony No. 6 in D major, Hob.I:6)
7. VI. Finale: Presto (From Symphony No. 46 in B major, Hob.I:46)
8. VII. Finale: Prestissimo (From Symphony No. 60 in C major, Hob.I:60)
9. VIII. Introduction to Winter (Original version) (From The Seasons, Hob.XXI:3)
10. IXa. Finale: Presto (From Symphony No. 45 in F-sharp minor, Hob.I:45)
11. IXb. Finale: Adagio (From Symphony No. 45 in F-sharp minor, Hob.I:45)
12. X. Music for Musical Clocks (From Flötenuhrstücke, Hob.XIX:1-32)
13. XI. Finale: Allegro assai (From Symphony No. 90 in C major, Hob.I:90)

Quote
Sir Simon Rattle pays homage to a composer he holds close to his heart with An Imaginary Orchestral Journey through the music of Joseph Haydn. Rattle trawls through the great composer’s impressive catalogue, piecing together excerpts from symphonies, oratorios and operas spanning a 40-year period in what the director describes as ‘a kind of greatest hits’ format.

‘The idea is to make a musical journey through all that is quirky and extraordinary, humorous and profound in Haydn,’ the LSO’s Music Director explains. Sir Simon’s focus is on Haydn as innovator, showcasing his most forward-looking and outlandish works in 50 minutes of uninterrupted performance.

What results from Sir Simon’s pasticcio is a clear image of the composer he sees to best represent the ideals of the Enlightenment, his selection meticulously arranged to best demonstrate Haydn’s intelligence, wit and thoughtfulness.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2018, 07:10:18 PM by Jeffrey Smith »

The One

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11523 on: January 16, 2018, 02:13:04 AM »
Of the 3 in this grop (79-81), 80 was the only one that was ever recorded on PI, until last year when Dantone did all 3 of them. So there are just those 2, and then the new one with Antonini/Basel with 80 & 81, which just came out. So choices are thin on the ground for now:

79 - Dantone
80 - Freiburg Bar. - Dantone - Antonini
81 - Dantone - Antonini

They are Haydn's last symphonies before the Paris ones, and very interesting, which makes the lack of recordings all the harder to understand. :-\

8)

I'll try FBO then. I guess the problem with the 3 (79-81) which are for "public at large" is that I don't remember much after listening to them :)

The One

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11524 on: January 16, 2018, 02:14:45 AM »
on modern instruments the Orpheus chamber orchestra (DG) and as far as I recall also Adam Fischer (Nimbus/Brilliant) do a good job with 79-81. But this requires to buy three separate discs in the first case and probably a box set in the second.

Thanks. I have the complete sets, Dorati, Fischer, Davies and the OCO. I was going for PI with the hand of the PI-in-Charge

Online Jo498

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11525 on: January 16, 2018, 02:23:37 AM »
With all respect, I utterly fail to see the point of the Pasticcio offered by Rattle. While a similar procedure made some with Minkowski and other putting instrumental stuff from Rameau's Operas and Balletts together and similar suites from Rimsky operas have a long tradition, why do this with Haydn symphonies that are integral instrumental works and not overly long. Or if he wants to do a disc with ouvertures or introductions why throw in symphony movements?
Struck by the sounds before the sun,
I knew the night had gone.
The morning breeze like a bugle blew
Against the drums of dawn.
(Bob Dylan)

Turner

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11526 on: January 16, 2018, 03:42:17 AM »
With all respect, I utterly fail to see the point of the Pasticcio offered by Rattle. While a similar procedure made some with Minkowski and other putting instrumental stuff from Rameau's Operas and Balletts together and similar suites from Rimsky operas have a long tradition, why do this with Haydn symphonies that are integral instrumental works and not overly long. Or if he wants to do a disc with ouvertures or introductions why throw in symphony movements?

I agree, most buyers would go for more, complete works, obtainable for the same price these days. Also, if one then continues the suggested journey and afterwards invests in other, complete recordings of some of the works, they are likely to be quite different in style and execution compared to the fragments presented by Rattle - with a possibility of them being disappointing too.
 
There´s an example of a positive review here, though
https://bachtrack.com/review-haydn-rattle-kozhukhin-london-symphony-july-2017
« Last Edit: January 16, 2018, 03:45:25 AM by Turner »

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11527 on: January 16, 2018, 04:02:40 AM »
Email today from LSOLive announced a Haydn CD from Rattle
https://lsolive.lso.co.uk/collections/all-products/products/haydn-an-imaginary-orchestral-journey
Track listing
1. I. Introduction: Representation of Chaos: Largo (From The Creation, Hob.XXI:2)
2. II. The Earthquake: Presto e con tutta la forza (From The Seven Last Words of our Saviour on the Cross, Hob.XX:1)
3. IIIa. Sinfonia: Largo - Vivace assai (From L'isola disabitata, Hob.Ia:13)
4. IIIb. Sinfonia: Allegretto - Vivace (From L'isola disabitata, Hob.Ia:13)
5. IV. Largo (From Symphony No. 64 in A major, Hob.I:64)
6. V. Minuet & Trio (From Symphony No. 6 in D major, Hob.I:6)
7. VI. Finale: Presto (From Symphony No. 46 in B major, Hob.I:46)
8. VII. Finale: Prestissimo (From Symphony No. 60 in C major, Hob.I:60)
9. VIII. Introduction to Winter (Original version) (From The Seasons, Hob.XXI:3)
10. IXa. Finale: Presto (From Symphony No. 45 in F-sharp minor, Hob.I:45)
11. IXb. Finale: Adagio (From Symphony No. 45 in F-sharp minor, Hob.I:45)
12. X. Music for Musical Clocks (From Flötenuhrstücke, Hob.XIX:1-32)
13. XI. Finale: Allegro assai (From Symphony No. 90 in C major, Hob.I:90)

Quote
[...] Rattle trawls through the great composer’s impressive catalogue [...]

Probably a question of my own remove from fishing activity, but I don’t read trawl as an especially flattering verb  8)
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

kishnevi

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11528 on: January 18, 2018, 07:17:37 PM »
Cross post from WAYLT

The first CD of this set



I am not into historical recordings, but this new remastering yields the best sound for a recording from the 1930s I have heard.  The age of the recordings is still evident but far less an impediment to listening than usual.

Baron Scarpia

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11529 on: January 18, 2018, 11:59:10 PM »
After all the discussion of the Symphony No 80, I had to break out my Davies set and give a listen. I was intrigued to see it is a minor key work (a special treat in Mozart or Haydn). Upon listening, it certainly is a quirky little piece. The first movement, in particular, has a peculiar form, with the grand pauses in the development section and an oddly structure recapitulation that doesn't give as literal repeat of the main material of the piece as is usually the case. The middle movements seemed more routine, but the finale had another surprise, an intensely syncopated opening theme. I only 'got' the rhythm of it after it was continued in a full tutti passage. A delightful work. Davies handled it well, I thought, although the tempos may be a bit on the broad side.


Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11530 on: January 19, 2018, 04:33:34 AM »
Cool, both.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11531 on: January 19, 2018, 08:21:44 AM »
After all the discussion of the Symphony No 80, I had to break out my Davies set and give a listen. I was intrigued to see it is a minor key work (a special treat in Mozart or Haydn). Upon listening, it certainly is a quirky little piece. The first movement, in particular, has a peculiar form, with the grand pauses in the development section and an oddly structure recapitulation that doesn't give as literal repeat of the main material of the piece as is usually the case. The middle movements seemed more routine, but the finale had another surprise, an intensely syncopated opening theme. I only 'got' the rhythm of it after it was continued in a full tutti passage. A delightful work. Davies handled it well, I thought, although the tempos may be a bit on the broad side.

When I wrote about this work originally (Symphony #80 and more), I did a lot of research to see what the pros thought of it, since I found it nothing short of way cool, but I had a hard time figuring out what was going on. As it turns out, so did the pros!  Anyway, to me, the first movement is a sort of rejection of the drama that dominated the Sturm und Drang, since every time he builds it up with fine, intense minor key drama, he immediately defuses the whole bomb with this almost silly little Ländler dance tune, then they pick right back up with the drama again. I love it, it totally dashes your expectations, which is Haydn at his best.  :)

8)
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Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11532 on: January 19, 2018, 08:23:02 AM »
He'll mess with your mind!  He messed with mine!
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

The One

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11533 on: January 19, 2018, 10:07:25 AM »
did a lot of research...thought of it...I love it...totally dashes your expectations...which is Haydn at his best.
I benefited from our Vivaldi traffic a lot. I have the budget for Haydn but still have 10+ recordings waiting for me to listen. Can you do it for Haydn, compiling some of your favorite recordings, beginning with concertos, than chamber and solo piano, in a couple of days?

Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11534 on: January 19, 2018, 07:59:16 PM »
I benefited from our Vivaldi traffic a lot. I have the budget for Haydn but still have 10+ recordings waiting for me to listen. Can you do it for Haydn, compiling some of your favorite recordings, beginning with concertos, than chamber and solo piano, in a couple of days?

Probably can, although my choices will probably only please me, since most people here are more mainstream than I am. You aren't too mainstream though, so you will probably like them too.  :D 

I'll have a go at it tomorrow. :)

8)
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The One

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11535 on: January 20, 2018, 02:24:31 AM »
Probably can, although my choices will probably only please me, since most people here are more mainstream than I am. You aren't too mainstream though, so you will probably like them too.  :D 

I'll have a go at it tomorrow. :)

8)

I can't define myself as mainstream or not, or PI or not. I am after enjoyable time and good performances of my favorite pieces.

In piano concertos I have two as reference, H18/4 and H18/11. In 18/4, Ax, Brautigam, Hamelin, Palumbo, Staier; in 18/11, the same minus Staier, plus Argerich and Pletnev.

In Violin Concertos, Accardo, Carmignola and Standage.

Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11536 on: January 21, 2018, 11:02:28 AM »
1797 was a momentous year for Austria, thus for Haydn. For music lovers, it was the year of the Opus 76 quartets and the Austrian National Anthem. But the major character of the drama of that year wasn't a musician...

Now it's on!

Thanks,
8)
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kishnevi

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11537 on: January 21, 2018, 02:33:28 PM »
I understand "deest" to mean a work has been deleted from the official catalogue?

So why are the orchestral and keyboard versions of Gott erhalte and the Insanae motet de-listed? Are they thought to be arrangements by other hands?

Offline North Star

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11538 on: January 21, 2018, 02:43:42 PM »
I understand "deest" to mean a work has been deleted from the official catalogue?

So why are the orchestral and keyboard versions of Gott erhalte and the Insanae motet de-listed? Are they thought to be arrangements by other hands?
I think it means unclassified rather than deleted - they haven't been assigned a number in the Hoboken category.
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Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Haydn's Haus
« Reply #11539 on: January 21, 2018, 02:55:50 PM »
I understand "deest" to mean a work has been deleted from the official catalogue?

So why are the orchestral and keyboard versions of Gott erhalte and the Insanae motet de-listed? Are they thought to be arrangements by other hands?

No, they are works that are NOT listed. Never were. The keyboard variations were only definitively attributed to Haydn within the last 20 years. Variations in general are a problem since 87 people might write them. It was known that Haydn wrote SOME variations, but not certainly that he wrote THESE. He did.

I think that Hoboken maybe had problems with contrafacta in general. He doesn't even list ones that are certainly by Haydn, even when he lists the original work.

As for the orchestral version of "Gott erhalte...", there can be no telling why it isn't listed. The original score in Haydn's handwriting is in a museum in Vienna, likewise Elssler's fair copy. It has not been published in the 20th / 21st century, with the exception that Landon published it in full in Volume 4 of Chronicle & Works.  Why no one has ever recorded it is totally beyond my understanding.  :-\

8)
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