Haydn's Haus

[Gurn Blanston]

Pardon my non-participation, I always lurk with interest.

Just wanted to note that I am converting one of my good and deserving siblings to near-Haydnista status . . . .

Well, when he is ready to emerge, by all means have him report in. We will be delighted! 

[kishnevi]

Reporting in simply to note that when I came home round the midnight hour last night I found my packages from Amazon France and Amazon Spain on the doorstep, which means I now have in my possession the Aoelian string quartet cycle,  although it will be a while before it gets its turn in the CD player.  (Among other things, the Amazon France package was the Karajan Ring, so there's  a lot of competition going on in the CD stacks.)  Along with it was a 10 CD set of Menuhin concerto recordings, one of which turns out to be Hob. VII: 1.

[Gurn Blanston]

Reporting in simply to note that when I came home round the midnight hour last night I found my packages from Amazon France and Amazon Spain on the doorstep, which means I now have in my possession the Aoelian string quartet cycle,  although it will be a while before it gets its turn in the CD player.  (Among other things, the Amazon France package was the Karajan Ring, so there's  a lot of competition going on in the CD stacks.)  Along with it was a 10 CD set of Menuhin concerto recordings, one of which turns out to be Hob. VII: 1.

I read mixed reviews of that cycle, Jeffrey. It will be interesting to hear about it from someone whose tastes I am familiar with. Carry on.

Curious when you get 'round to it, when did Menuhin record that Haydn? Like in 1935 or in 1975?  Also what you think of it too.

Cheers,

[kishnevi]

I read mixed reviews of that cycle, Jeffrey. It will be interesting to hear about it from someone whose tastes I am familiar with. Carry on.

Curious when you get 'round to it, when did Menuhin record that Haydn? Like in 1935 or in 1975?  Also what you think of it too.

Cheers,

I can give you the Menuhin recording date easily--1963, with Himself conducting the Bath Festival Orchestra.

As to a listen--well, I have hopes of hearing these two sometime before next Christmas 

[Mandryka]

I'd like to explore the Haydn/ CPE Bach relation a bit. Can anyone suggest some easily accessible not too technical reading?

[Gurn Blanston]

The Creation / Die Schöpfung
Oratorio – Hoboken XXI:2
Composed 1796-98
Music - Joseph Haydn
Libretto – Gottfried van Sweiten (German & English)
The players: S / T / B, Chorus, 3 Flutes, 2 Oboes, 2 Clarinets, 2 Bassoons, Double Bassoon, 2 Horns, 2 Trumpets, 3 Trombones, Timpani, Strings & Basso continuo.
First Public Performance: The Burgtheater in Vienna. 180 players including 120 instrumentalists and 60 choristers.

Just before Haydn left England for the last time, in 1795, his friend and host, J.P. Salomon, gave him a libretto that he had on hand. It was clearly based on the creation story in the King James Bible and Milton's "Paradise Lost". Salomon told Haydn that the libretto had been originally written for Handel, but in the event, it had never been set. The author is anonymous, and the original of the libretto is apparently gone forever.

Van Sweiten was both a tremendous patron of music in Vienna (he was vitally important to Mozart and Beethoven as well as being Haydn's biggest fan in the city) as well as a man of letters. This quote from later years tells his attitude well; "I recognized at once that such an exalted subject would give Haydn the opportunity that I had long desired, to show the full compass of his profound accomplishments and to express the full power of his inexhaustible genius". A man who recognized genius well enough to know that he wasn't just overcome with it himself! But good at what he did, and possessed of much power in Vienna at a time when that was a scarce commodity.

Given that neither Haydn nor Van Sweiten was a strong English speaker, a good reason for the length of time it took to get the project completed is that from the very beginning, Haydn was determined that the English version would be released simultaneously with the German one. Van Sweiten had little problem translating the original, and the German version proceeded apace. But for some reason, the original wasn't used for the English version, instead, the German version was translated back into English! And a rather clumsy English at that, as you would expect. A fine example "The marv'lous work beholds amazed The glorious hierarchy of heav'n"... huh??      But the fact is that nearly all oratorios, even the greatest of them, share a certain mode of speech. They aren't meant to be read as poetry, but rather to be listened to, and in this they succeed very well. I think that the "corrections" that we will see in Macreesh's libretto (more on this later) are fine for reading purposes, exemplary in fact, but not really needed for singing/listening. Just my opinion. Haydn was delighted with the German translation in any case and it stirred him to some of his most sublime creative efforts. Most of the criticism that Van Sweiten has received over the years (since the beginning, actually) comes from people who never had to compose a long singing text in two languages before the music was even written (clearly this differs from translating a completed work from one language to another).

For those who don't know this work, a basic outline is that it is in 3 acts, arranged thus;

Act 1       First Day: Creation of Heaven & Earth & light
               Second Day: Division of the waters
               Third Day: land & sea; plants
               Fourth Day: Sun, moon & Stars
Act 2       Fifth Day: Birds & Fish
               Sixth Day: Beasts; man & woman
Act 3       Adam & Eve's awakening
               Adam & Eve's mutual love   

These 'day periods' are each capped by a chorus of praise by the angels. So this creates a sort of structure for the entire, recitative and aria (or duet or trio), more recitative, finally a chorus.

As is not uncommon for the period, although it was rapidly falling into disfavor at the time, there is a considerable amount of 'tone painting', which is to say, music imitating nature. I personally find it to be quite discreet and actually no distraction, especially since Haydn was quite ingenious at executing it in a realistic yet unobtrusive way. It was this feature in particular, however, which caused the work to fall into disfavor with the Romantic generation. They were essentially unable to refrain from applying their own rules and tastes to earlier generations. Their loss, I'm afraid.

Some recordings
Die Schöpfung now happens to be one of the most popular subjects for recordings beginning in the latter half of the 20th century. The next essay will begin a comparison of the virtues of these 10 PI recordings that I currently have on my shelves. I hope you will find it interesting, and maybe pick up a set or two for yourself. 


In English:




In German:



Always interested in feedback, and in any further PI recordings that I may have failed to come across previously.

[Karl Henning]

. . . But for some reason, the original wasn't used for the English version, instead, the German version was translated back into English! And a rather clumsy English at that, as you would expect.

Tangentially . . . exactly this sort of thing happened in the case of Rakhmaninov's The Bells. That is, the composer set Konstantin Balmont's evocative Russian translation of Poe; and when Melodiya released a certain recording on LP, the English version on the reverse of the jacket was not Poe's original, but a re-translation back from Balmont's text.

Laughable, why, yes.

But, thanks to you, dear fellow, nice to know that there is such stellar precedent : )

[SonicMan46]

I'd like to explore the Haydn/ CPE Bach relation a bit. Can anyone suggest some easily accessible not too technical reading?

Well, I cannot be of much help regarding a lengthy discussion of their relationship or the details of CPE Bach's influence on Haydn except to know that he indeed was an important one (as Bach was on other composers of the latter half of the 18th century) - a brief quote below from HERE is just a little more revealing - this extract is from AC Dies' Biographische Nachrichten von Joseph Haydn (Vienna, 1810); this book in English translation is available on Amazon (and probably in local specialized libraries?) - maybe some of our Haydn scholars, such as Gurn, can add some more in depth comments.  Dave 

Haydn ventured into a bookshop and asked for a good textbook on theory. The bookseller named the writings of Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach as the best and most recent. Haydn wanted to look and see for himself. He began to read, he understood, found what he was looking for, paid for the book, and took it away thoroughly pleased.
    That Haydn sought to make Bach s principles his own, that he studied them untiringly, is apparent even in his youthful works from that period. From his nineteenth year Haydn wrote quartets which gave him a reputation among lovers of music as a profound genius, so quickly had he learnt. As time went on, he acquired Bach s later writings. In his opinion Bach's writings form the best, most thorough and most useful textbook ever published.
    As soon as Haydn s musical output became available in print, Bach noted with pleasure that he could count Haydn among his pupils. He later paid Haydn a flattering compliment; that Haydn alone had understood [Bach's] writings completely and had known how to make use of them.

[Gurn Blanston]

Well, I cannot be of much help regarding a lengthy discussion of their relationship or the details of CPE Bach's influence on Haydn except to know that he indeed was an important one (as Bach was on other composers of the latter half of the 18th century) - a brief quote below from HERE is just a little more revealing - this extract is from AC Dies' Biographische Nachrichten von Joseph Haydn (Vienna, 1810); this book in English translation is available on Amazon (and probably in local specialized libraries?) - maybe some of our Haydn scholars, such as Gurn, can add some more in depth comments.  Dave 

I'd like to explore the Haydn/ CPE Bach relation a bit. Can anyone suggest some easily accessible not too technical reading?

Your post pretty much summed it up, Dave. I can't think of any book that fits the criteria that Mandrake proposes. Haydn's statement to Dies, and another which refers to, not "The True Art of Playing the Keyboard", but to a set of 6 sonatas (not known which they were) which he found in a shop and was so fascinated by that he couldn't stop until he had mastered them, are about the only direct evidence of the CPE ---> Haydn relationship.

Now, inferentially I have determined that such books as this one;

[asin]0226768139[/asin]

discuss the topic (that fact has been referred to elsewhere), but having read a couple of essays by Somfai, I can state with near certainty that this won't live up to the "not too technical" aspect! Everything he writes is too technical for me!! 

In short, I don't think there IS a book that would satisfy anything less than a master musician. Maybe one day....

[Gurn Blanston]

Tangentially . . . exactly this sort of thing happened in the case of Rakhmaninov's The Bells. That is, the composer set Konstantin Balmont's evocative Russian translation of Poe; and when Melodiya released a certain recording on LP, the English version on the reverse of the jacket was not Poe's original, but a re-translation back from Balmont's text.

Laughable, why, yes.

But, thanks to you, dear fellow, nice to know that there is such stellar precedent : )

  Interesting factoid, Karl.

Milton's verse already was known for its unusual sentence construction (of the "throw the horse over the fence some hay" type), so you can figure that translating into German, which would be at home with what English-speakers think of as unusual construction, and then back again by a non-English speaker who was apparently too proud to ask for help, and the result can be... stilted?  However, there must have been a method to it, since for purposes of setting to music, it falls quite nicely.

Someone answer those damned Bells!   

[Gurn Blanston]

I'd like to explore the Haydn/ CPE Bach relation a bit. Can anyone suggest some easily accessible not too technical reading?

Although to continue my earlier reply, if you have this book (shame on you if you don't!);

[asin]0393317129[/asin]

Rosen does do some contrasting and relationship studying. I had quite forgotten that. It IS a bit technical for me, but that doesn't mean it is for you. I eventually worked it out, I know you can.

[kishnevi]

Somewhat tangentially (although of course Haydn did write an Orlando opera for Esterhaza):

An entry from the diary of Sir Walter Scott, regarding the translation of Ariosto's Orlando Furioso by his friend
William Stuart Rose:

Sam made us merry with an account of some part of Rose's Ariosto, proposed that the Italian should be printed on the other side for the sake of assisting the indolent reader to understand English; and complained of his having used more than once the phrase of a lady having "voided her saddle".

(taken from the prefatory matter of Guido Waldman's prose translation of O.F., published by OUP in 1974).

[Gurn Blanston]

Somewhat tangentially (although of course Haydn did write an Orlando opera for Esterhaza):

An entry from the diary of Sir Walter Scott, regarding the translation of Ariosto's Orlando Furioso by his friend
William Stuart Rose:

Sam made us merry with an account of some part of Rose's Ariosto, proposed that the Italian should be printed on the other side for the sake of assisting the indolent reader to understand English; and complained of his having used more than once the phrase of a lady having "voided her saddle".

(taken from the prefatory matter of Guido Waldman's prose translation of O.F., published by OUP in 1974).

  That's funny, now...

[SonicMan46]

Your post pretty much summed it up, Dave. I can't think of any book that fits the criteria that Mandrake proposes. Haydn's statement to Dies, and another which refers to, not "The True Art of Playing the Keyboard", but to a set of 6 sonatas (not known which they were) which he found in a shop and was so fascinated by that he couldn't stop until he had mastered them, are about the only direct evidence of the CPE ---> Haydn relationship. ................................

Gurn - thanks for the additional comments - the question pique my interest and I tried to look for the Dies book online - no luck but seems to be available (along w/ the G.A. Griesinger early biography) in an English translation for about $20 - not sure that I would read the book?  But I did find another book @ Project Gutenberg HERE by J. Cuthbert Hadden (preface dated 1902) w/ a couple paragraphs on CPE Bach which I attached for those interested.  Dave

P.S. I still cannot get through that Rosen book - will start it again; maybe after a half dozen years or so here, I'll be better prepared?   

[Gurn Blanston]

Gurn - thanks for the additional comments - the question pique my interest and I tried to look for the Dies book online - no luck but seems to be available (along w/ the G.A. Griesinger early biography) in an English translation for about $20 - not sure that I would read the book?  But I did find another book @ Project Gutenberg HERE by J. Cuthbert Hadden (preface dated 1902) w/ a couple paragraphs on CPE Bach which I attached for those interested.  Dave

P.S. I still cannot get through that Rosen book - will start it again; maybe after a half dozen years or so here, I'll be better prepared?   

Interesting, Dave. Hadden is an old book, and he states some things as fact that we now know are anecdotal. However, in all points that I can verify, this is an accurate account. He may not have had access to Dies or Greisinger (whichever it was) to have the tale of the bookseller who convinced him to try CPE's "True Art...". That's the only thing missing of what I have heard though. Well, that and his statement to Greisinger that "anyone who knows me knows that my main influence was Emanuel Bach..." (not Sammartini).

I suspect that yu wouldn't want to read Dies/Greisinger straight through. Everything pertinent that they wrote is quoted in whatever book that is currently referencing them anyway. Interesting of course, but not vitally important to have on hand. I would have thought that this book would have been available on Project Gutenberg too. The translator/author is Vernon Gotwals.

[asin]0299027910[/asin] 



Less than $11 used....



PS - Buck up on the Rosen, matey. If you understood it all, you would be the greatest American music writer yourself. Take what you can and leave the rest.

[kishnevi]

Now that I've safely placed my order,  I can let the rest of you Haydnistos in on this, from Arkvimusic's clearance sale.

$5.99 plus shipping and sales tax (if any)

[Mirror Image]

Just bought:

[Wakefield]

Always interested in feedback, and in any further PI recordings that I may have failed to come across previously.

Nice project, as usual, Gurn.

I recall two additional versions on PI:

[TheGSMoeller]

Anyone else totally enamored with this recording? I also own Solti, Kuijken and Gardiner's Seasons, but Jacobs' grabbed my attention in a way the others could not. I actually enjoyed my first run through of this Seasons more than my first run through of my favorite Creation recording. A new favorite Haydn oratorio emerging?
Two things should have foreshadowed this occurrence, first, Jacobs recording of no.92 with Freiburger is completely satisfying and exciting, capped off with a rocket-boosted finale, I find myself reaching for that 7-minute movement whenever I need an energy boost, better than Red Bull. Second, I bought this Seasons disc along with Jacobs Die Zauberflote, and his interpretation of Mozart's best opera (factual opinion) has floored me, one of the most visual-inducing records I've experienced, you can sense the production, the movements, the sets, etc...altogether divine.
Anyway, this Seasons recording has had a very similar effect on me, very theatrical yet musically detailed. Not to mention some frighteningly superb playing and singing.

[Karl Henning]

I'd about forgotten what a dangerous place da Haus can be, what with that Seasons and the Boston Baroque Creation . . . .