Haydn's Haus

[Gurn Blanston]

I try to recreate that concert. Good candidates are:

- for the Rosetti symphony, the G minor Kaul I:27, Murray A41. It dates from 1787, but the program doesn´t advertise it as "new" and moreover "grand" suits it perfectly.

- for the Viotti "new concerto", the D major W20/G92 (1795)

I´ve been less sucessfull in identifying the Dussek "new concerto". Any ideas and recommended recordings?

As for the arias and scenes, the case is hopeless. No titles provided, no composers either. 

He wrote a concerto in F which he published in 1794, speculation is it was this one. When I am home I will post a CD cover which has that concerto on it, I believe the same one. It is actually on a disk with some Pleyel.

I love recreating concert tickets that way. I can tell you that the arias which Mara sang were by Anfossi and (IIRC) Guglielmi. One never gets more info than that, and usually not that much.

Those CD's you listed are a great resource. Other than the Viotti a minor which I have by Walffisch, that is my go-to Viotti box too.

Hah!

Great installment, as usual.

I wonder if there are any German officers left who play Haydn in their evening meetings... or, are there any German officers passionately interested in, and playing, German contemporary music?... 

Thanks, I appreciate it. That same question occurred to me while I was writing that section. Of course, back then, being an officer put you in the same class as minor (at least) nobility, and so you got the education and the culture. Now, being an officer means you went to school and did well. Even though it should mean the same thing, it probably doesn't.

[Gurn Blanston]

Nice to see this wonderfull thread. I must say that for me Haydn becomes more and more important. When I was a young man, Haydn was for me completely boring. I listened to Bruckner and Mahler, music which was very expressive and creates spiritual enthusiasm. And of course Mozart and Beethoven were for me much more important.

Well, I am 55 now and not 15, and today I am much less impressed by such "overwhelming" musical experiences. What I like today at Haydn is that he writes a music which never plays to the gallery. His music impresses through substance and nothing else.

But I have one question: Which symphonies of Haydn are recommendable apart of the of course very famous Paris and London symphonies? I must say, I have listened to some of he earlier ones in my Adam Fischer box, the 60es and 70es numbers and I must say that I found them relatively boring.

What I really like are his piano sonatas. I have the Brilliant box with fortepianos, but then I have also the Derzhavina box on a modern piano. I must say that I don't like the very early sonatas which are the two first CDs in the Derzhavina box. Maybe they sound better on a cembalo. But the other sonatas who are later are nearly all masterpieces. I mean Beethoven is more "impressive", Haydn seems more simple but this has a great charme. Apart of the Brilliant box and the Derzhaviny box I have also a "Quadromania" CD box with 4 CDs. These are older recordings and I like especially the Rena Kyriakou CD. This box was very cheap but now it's very expensive as it happens sometimes.

Of the string quartetts I haven't already explored every quartett. But I have to say that the early Opus 9 and Opus 17 quartetts which are not as famous as the opus 20 are very good and I like them. I have only Buchberger of Brilliant, some Kodaly quartett CDs, and Opus 33 with the Caspar da Salo quartett, of which some people say that it is very good, although it was published on a bargain label and nobody knows who the Caspar da Salo quartett is and there are many rumours who in reality the Caspar da Salo quartett could be.

What I also want to explore are the piano trios.

Well, I have heard once the sentence "With Haydn you come never to an end". I think the sentence is true, because in Haydn there is really so much wonderfull music to discover.

Martin,
A very warm welcome to Unser Haus.  I find your story very interesting, in that it parallels my own in so many ways. I also used to be far more impressed by the Sturm und Drang of the 19th century. I had found Haydn early, too early to really appreciate his good qualities, but some things caught my ear anyway.

Your questions are all reasonable ones, with many composers one can invest a fortune in 'versions' by different performers. In Haydn, I have found that the music itself is greater than the power of the performer to alter it, and so most performances are at least very good. All of the performances that have been recommended by Jens, for example, I also found to be very good. So it really depends on your particular taste and interest. For me, I only have period instrument recordings and no interest beyond that. If this is where you have an interest, let me know and I will recommend some things.

Welcome again, regards,
Gurn

[Florestan]

He wrote a concerto in F which he published in 1794, speculation is it was this one. When I am home I will post a CD cover which has that concerto on it, I believe the same one. It is actually on a disk with some Pleyel.

Thanks in advance.

course, back then, being an officer put you in the same class as minor (at least) nobility, and so you got the education and the culture. Now, being an officer means you went to school and did well. Even though it should mean the same thing, it probably doesn't.

I have been reading recently the memoirs of the great Romanian pianist Aurelia Cionca (1888-1962). She recalls that in 1944, just before leaving Bucharest for the countryside (the capital city had been bombarded the day before by the US aviation), a young German soldier (soldier, not officer, mind you!) who was a pianist and who had borrowed some scored from her came to her house with another comrade soldier and asked her to play Bach for them. While playing the Fantasia chromatica, she noticed the two men had started to weep. "I think I´ve never ever played it better ", she writes.

O tempora, o mores!

[SurprisedByBeauty]

In Haydn, I have found that the music itself is greater than the power of the performer to alter it, and so most performances are at least very good.
Gurn

That's the only aspect with which I would disagree with Gurn... and very considerably. I think that Haydn is in fact one of the most difficult composers to play/conduct... and that more often than not, at least when performed live, it done far, far short of what it should be. As a result (and with Haydn not being taken seriously enough by some artists), there are some really, really boring Haydn performances to be heard out there... reinforcing a negative image in the minds of casual concert goers. True, with recordings, at least the 'not taking it seriously' aspect is, one would think, taken care of. Still, it's best do get Haydn really well performed and then (I think, though I understand that may not be shared by everyone) I don't care whether it's a HIP performance that succeeds, or a non-HIP one. (As can be seen by the recommendations that came to mind immediately, since neither of them are, whereas I tend, generally speaking, to prefer HIP by a good measure. [Only in the context of this forum could I be considered not-a-HIPster  ]

One problem with HIP performances of earlier symphonies: There are not that many single discs that spring to mind.

Two sets (apart from complete and nearly-complete sets, which don't really offer what you are seeking) that I think are worth hearing are:

Pinnock / Sturm & Drang Symphonies (26, 35, 38, 39, 41-52, 58, 59, 65 and Bruno Weil (41-74, 50-52, 64, 65 + 6 Paris Symphonies).

The Peter Goodman recordings on Helios are available singly, also (only), but that's the one cycle I know the least .

[Gurn Blanston]

That's the only aspect with which I would disagree with Gurn... and very considerably. I think that Haydn is in fact one of the most difficult composers to play/conduct... and that more often than not, at least when performed live, it done far, far short of what it should be. As a result (and with Haydn not being taken seriously enough by some artists), there are some really, really boring Haydn performances to be heard out there... reinforcing a negative image in the minds of casual concert goers. True, with recordings, at least the 'not taking it seriously' aspect is, one would think, taken care of. Still, it's best do get Haydn really well performed and then (I think, though I understand that may not be shared by everyone) I don't care whether it's a HIP performance that succeeds, or a non-HIP one. (As can be seen by the recommendations that came to mind immediately, since neither of them are, whereas I tend, generally speaking, to prefer HIP by a good measure. [Only in the context of this forum could I be considered not-a-HIPster  ]

One problem with HIP performances of earlier symphonies: There are not that many single discs that spring to mind.

Two sets (apart from complete and nearly-complete sets, which don't really offer what you are seeking) that I think are worth hearing are:

Pinnock / Sturm & Drang Symphonies (26, 35, 38, 39, 41-52, 58, 59, 65 and Bruno Weil (41-74, 50-52, 64, 65 + 6 Paris Symphonies).

The Peter Goodman recordings on Helios are available singly, also (only), but that's the one cycle I know the least .

I think the key to your post is this very important statement: "and that more often than not, at least when performed live, it done far, far short of what it should be."

I am first to admit I have not heard a lot of the old 'historic' recordings of Haydn, I just don't olisten to that stuff, no matter the composer. The Haydn I have heard 'live' did indeed suffer from 'show opener syndrome', as in 'don't worry, the heavyweight stuff is coming'.

But modern recordings, at least those made since the mid-'80's, PI or not, have been almost all committed-sounding, anyway. I don't even have the reservations about Fischer, although I have certainly read them often, I think there are some sound issues, but not player issues, anyway. The cynical 'lightweight' tag that got hung on Haydn back around the time of his death has finally seemed to be lifted, with virtually all his music except for the concertos. And if people will take the time to learn something about them, I think they will be better received too.

And as I have been saying since I started posting heavily in this thread, I don't care if you prefer PI or MI, what I care about is that you listen to Haydn. Die Musik über alles!



PS - FWIW, I think you're hip...

[SurprisedByBeauty]

But modern recordings, at least those made since the mid-'80's, PI or not, have been almost all committed-sounding, anyway.

I'm putting that theory to the test, right now: 


classicalcritic#morninglistening to #Haydn's #creation w/#Marriner & @asmforchestra on @deccaclassics (Philips)
w/#FiDi, Edith Mathis & Aldo Baldin from 1980. Trying to gain some appreciation for Marriner which, to be honest, I had never quite
fully developed. When I grew up, Marriner was the omnipresent must-hear (as in: no choice) Mozart et al. go-to conductor, just
churning it out by the indiscriminate dozens. I am beginning to differentiate now. #HaydnCuresAllProblems

#classicalmusic #classicalmusiccollection #choralmusic #oratorium

PS - FWIW, I think you're hip...

Yo, man,  I diggit!

[Gurn Blanston]

I'm putting that theory to the test, right now: 


classicalcritic#morninglistening to #Haydn's #creation w/#Marriner & @asmforchestra on @deccaclassics (Philips)
w/#FiDi, Edith Mathis & Aldo Baldin from 1980. Trying to gain some appreciation for Marriner which, to be honest, I had never quite
fully developed. When I grew up, Marriner was the omnipresent must-hear (as in: no choice) Mozart et al. go-to conductor, just
churning it out by the indiscriminate dozens. I am beginning to differentiate now. #HaydnCuresAllProblems

#classicalmusic #classicalmusiccollection #choralmusic #oratorium


Yo, man,  I diggit!

Good, I'll be curious of your opinion. Before I became so committed to my current course, I liked the hell out of Sir Neville, and no reason to think otherwise now.

[Gurn Blanston]

Thanks in advance.

I have had just moments to look around. He wrote 2 concertos in F, Opus 17 from 1792, which is the one I have, and Opus 27 from 1794, which is the one that I believe he played in this concert, since it was listed as brand new. There are a couple of recordings of it available, I see at Amazon. You can probably find it online now, knowing the name of it.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Good, I'll be curious of your opinion. Before I became so committed to my current course, I liked the hell out of Sir Neville, and no reason to think otherwise now.

Indeed!! I was just listening to my recording of Marriner's Season's a few days back and, as usual, came away feeling this is primo Haydn music-making.

I'm thinking it's time to perhaps explore Marriner's (too few) recordings of the symphonies...

Haydn, Seasons, Marriner.

[Jo498]

Marriner's "Paris symphonies" are (among) the best of the modern chamber orchestra recordings; especially in the "lighter" symphonies (esp. 85 and 87) his brilliant approach works well and they are among my favorite recordings of these works (and besides Bernstein's the only complete modern instruments set I kept). He recorded a bunch of "name symphonies" (some in that box are with Leppard, though, and it is probably unavailable anyway) as well as 6-8 but I have not heard them. He (or Iona Brown?) also accompanies several nice concerto recordings, e.g. cello with Heinrich Schiff and the horn concerti.

I think I have the oratorios in a larger sacred music box but I don't think I have heard them. He also did 4? of the last 6 masses with Staatskapelle Dresden for EMI (respectively the East German Eterna).

[Gurn Blanston]

Indeed!! I was just listening to my recording of Marriner's Season's a few days back and, as usual, came away feeling this is primo Haydn music-making.

I'm thinking it's time to perhaps explore Marriner's (too few) recordings of the symphonies...

Hey, DD. Yes, I haven't heard NM doing The Seasons, but it is the sort of music which would be right up his alley. I base what I think of him in Haydn on what I know of him in Mozart, which I think he really had a grip on, one which the big name Romantic specialists never quite got by the tail.

[Gurn Blanston]

Marriner's "Paris symphonies" are (among) the best of the modern chamber orchestra recordings; especially in the "lighter" symphonies (esp. 85 and 87) his brilliant approach works well and they are among my favorite recordings of these works (and besides Bernstein's the only complete modern instruments set I kept). He recorded a bunch of "name symphonies" (some in that box are with Leppard, though, and it is probably unavailable anyway) as well as 6-8 but I have not heard them. He (or Iona Brown?) also accompanies several nice concerto recordings, e.g. cello with Heinrich Schiff and the horn concerti.

I think I have the oratorios in a larger sacred music box but I don't think I have heard them. He also did 4? of the last 6 masses with Staatskapelle Dresden for EMI (respectively the East German Eterna).

Pretty well verifies what my gut told me. I think you are right, it is Iona Brown. Good fiddler, too!

[Jo498]

As for Fischer's recordings of the symphonies, I think they are all over the place. There are some sound issues with the earlier recordings and for some of them (London/Paris, the only one of them I remember quite positively is the Concertante with great Vienna soloists) there are too many clearly superior choices. But there are some surprisingly good ones, usually among the ones recorded later. The later recordings have better, more direct sound, although there is occasionally some sloppy playing or passages.
E.g. while his #45 is quite lame, the much later recorded 39 and 26 are among the best, IMO only beaten by Solomons. Or compare his #22 (early, lame) with 21 (late, very good).

[Jo498]

Pretty well verifies what my gut told me. I think you are right, it is Iona Brown. Good fiddler, too!

I checked what I have: the Horn concertos are Baumann/Brown but the trumpet is Hardenberger/Marriner and the 'cello Schiff/Marriner

[SurprisedByBeauty]

Marriner's "Paris symphonies" are (among) the best of the modern chamber orchestra recordings; especially in the "lighter" symphonies (esp. 85 and 87) his brilliant approach works well and they are among my favorite recordings of these works (and besides Bernstein's the only complete modern instruments set I kept). He recorded a bunch of "name symphonies" (some in that box are with Leppard, though, and it is probably unavailable anyway) as well as 6-8 but I have not heard them. He (or Iona Brown?) also accompanies several nice concerto recordings, e.g. cello with Heinrich Schiff and the horn concerti.

I think I have the oratorios in a larger sacred music box but I don't think I have heard them. He also did 4? of the last 6 masses with Staatskapelle Dresden for EMI (respectively the East German Eterna).

He's got all the concertos, probably, between the disc you mention and the ones on Capriccio (VC 1 & 3, Sinfonia Concertante/Stuttgart), Oboe Concerto, Trumpet...

...as well as 6-8 but I have not heard them.

I never had them, since, well, I didn't grow up very appreciative of Marriner. But at my parents, when I was in the mood for Haydn and there was no other recording at hand, I plopped it in... and darn it, it is really good. I wanted to be patronizing about it, in a way, but no... really good.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Hey, DD. Yes, I haven't heard NM doing The Seasons, but it is the sort of music which would be right up his alley. I base what I think of him in Haydn on what I know of him in Mozart, which I think he really had a grip on, one which the big name Romantic specialists never quite got by the tail.

Hey back, Gurn. Yeah, makes sense to me. I have several discs of NM's Mozart (in fact, it's the only NM I have aside from Haydn's Seasons) and I find them all truly insightful. So, yes, NM in Haydn - overall - ought to be dandy (with that great Seasons recording a testament to that).

[Florestan]

https://www.youtube.com/v/TmhkJTrcmqM

Second theme of the Allegro starts at 3:39

https://www.youtube.com/v/s9t-kCzCKMU

Main theme of the Allegro starts at 0:25

Mere coincidence or deliberate quotation? 

[Gurn Blanston]

https://www.youtube.com/v/TmhkJTrcmqM

Second theme of the Allegro starts at 3:39

https://www.youtube.com/v/s9t-kCzCKMU

Main theme of the Allegro starts at 0:25

Mere coincidence or deliberate quotation? 

Copyright doesn't let 2nd video work in USA. What piece of work is it?  If it is Mozart, then yes, there is a chance. If it is something else, then I don't know. 

[Florestan]

Copyright doesn't let 2nd video work in USA. What piece of work is it?  If it is Mozart, then yes, there is a chance. If it is something else, then I don't know. 

Prokofiev´s 1st Piano Concerto. 

[SurprisedByBeauty]

Mere coincidence or deliberate quotation? 

I am going with coincidence. Prokofiev was widely familiar with a LOT of Haydn but I've not read anything about this being deliberate (i.e. in his diaries) nor does it sound deliberate enough to my ears (for whatever that's worth).