Haydn's Haus

[Gurn Blanston]

Today, listened to Opus 76 No 1 (String Quartet in G) twice.

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I enjoyed both. The outer movements were particularly engaging. Although I am usually an enthusiast for period instrument performance, the difference in timbre is not as noticeable to me for a string quartet as when a keyboard or wind instruments are involved. As expected, the Aeolian was a bit more graceful, the Festetics a bit more spirited. One nice thing about the Festetics set is that the first and second violins are seated left and right. The separation makes it possible to hear them distinctly, compared with the conventional seating arrangement where first and second violins are both seated on the listeners left. Sadly, the Festetics set, which I got only a year or so ago, is now nla, apparently.

I think I will go through the Op 76 quartets using this dual method.

The Festetics is, overall, my favorite set. The 'bit more spirited' well describes their attraction for me. YMMV.  Really, that set you have pictured was probably the last gasp; it is the 3rd release of them, unheard of for Arcana!! They were originally released in chubby jewel boxes boxes back in the late '90's, I have three of those. Then in digipaks for the 2009 Haydn Year, I have 6 of those. Finally the big box, which I don't have, but rather wish I had picked up as a collector's item.

If they had only done Op 1 & 2, which have never been done on PI, BTW, they come by far the closest to being a full set.  No 7 Last Words either.    FWIW, my favorite PI Op 76 is the Kuijken Quartet on Denon. Next time you are shopping in Tokyo...

[Wakefield]

If they had only done Op 1 & 2, which have never been done on PI, BTW, they come by far the closest to being a full set. No 7 Last Words either.    FWIW, my favorite PI Op 76 is the Kuijken Quartet on Denon. Next time you are shopping in Tokyo...

About "The Last Seven Words"- It's true they didn't record it on Arcana, but on Harmonia Mundi France. Occasionally some copy is sold via eBay, at least that's the way I got my copy. 

Picture from eBay:

[Gurn Blanston]

About "The Last Seven Words"- It's true they didn't record it on Arcana, but on Harmonia Mundi France. Occasionally some copy is sold via eBay, at least that's the way I got my copy. 

Picture from eBay:

Ah yes, I have Op 33 and 77 in that series. I haven't seen 7 Last Words, although it doesn't worry me, I don't consider them "string quartets" but rather "a suite for string quartet". Of course, that said, I would like to find that box. And I will.   Thanks for the info, Gordo!

[Gurn Blanston]

If you listen to Haydn's keyboard sonatas, you hear a striking difference between the last 3 and the ones which came before. It is more than just the normal growth of his skills, it is a change in apparent philosophy for piano music. Since 1794 produced his last 3 sonatas, I took a look at this phenomenon this time.

The London Pianoforte School

Check it out!   

[Madiel]

To rewind back just a few decades... As I've been setting out on the current listening thread, today I was finally exposed to Symphonies 6 through 8. Morning, noon and evening.

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And my goodness, I had no idea. They are so good, and also so different to the other symphonies I've been listening to in the Hogwood box. Well, the first two in particular. Symphony No.8 didn't startle me quite as much, although maybe by then I'd got used to the style. They really do often sound closer to Vivaldi concertos (Four Seasons being the obvious comparator) than to typical "classical" symphonies. So many solo parts.

I gather from the original notes to the Hogwood series, supplied to me by Gurn (thank you again!) that it wasn't uncommon at the time to have these sorts of extra-musical associations in symphonies. But still, from the perspective of history where we think of that as something from the Baroque, it really has been a bit startling in the nicest possible way to hear similar painting of moods and scenes in a symphony.

And as the same notes point out, there's some precedent here for Beethoven's "Pastoral" Symphony.

[Gurn Blanston]

To rewind back just a few decades... As I've been setting out on the current listening thread, today I was finally exposed to Symphonies 6 through 8. Morning, noon and evening.

[asin]B009LNI0T0[/asin]

And my goodness, I had no idea. They are so good, and also so different to the other symphonies I've been listening to in the Hogwood box. Well, the first two in particular. Symphony No.8 didn't startle me quite as much, although maybe by then I'd got used to the style. They really do often sound closer to Vivaldi concertos (Four Seasons being the obvious comparator) than to typical "classical" symphonies. So many solo parts.

I gather from the original notes to the Hogwood series, supplied to me by Gurn (thank you again!) that it wasn't uncommon at the time to have these sorts of extra-musical associations in symphonies. But still, from the perspective of history where we think of that as something from the Baroque, it really has been a bit startling in the nicest possible way to hear similar painting of moods and scenes in a symphony.

And as the same notes point out, there's some precedent here for Beethoven's "Pastoral" Symphony.

That's great! I didn't realize you hadn't heard those yet. My own experience is the opposite; they were the first symphonies I heard that were older than the Paris ones, and my first thought was that 'geez, even as early as #6 (from #82) Haydn already had his own recognizable style'. And indeed, even with all the tone painting that is there, and the wonderful soloistic parts, you hardly could think of who else could have written those symphonies than Haydn. 

As far as the tone painting idea goes when we move into the 19th century, I haven't done a lot yet (I'm still in 1794), but I have seen several contemporary disparagements over the use of them in the Creation and the Seasons,  and yet when Beethoven emulated the idea in Symphony #6, which was really the end of a long line of works, rather more than the beginning, it was well-received. Puzzling. 

[Jo498]

The tone-painting in the "day times" symphonies is rather mild, for me the virtuoso concertante elements stick out more. And Haydn has a few more pieces with similar solos in the early/mid 1760s, e.g. #13 and #31 although hardly ever as pronounced and combined with programs as in 6-8. There was a cycle on the seasons or even all the months by Haydn's predecessor Werner. 6-8 really seem to stick out in quality among the first 25 or so, although as always named pieces are given unproportional prominence and leave similarly good ones in the shade.

Overall, I think tone-painting was usually seen as occassionally acceptable, unless it became too gimmicky. Beethoven himself said about the Pastoral "Mehr Ausdruck der Empfindung als Malerei" (more expression of feeling than painting) and the piece *does* somewhat stick out in his oeuvre, even if there might be found a little programmatic or "painting" music in a few other pieces, like the Les adieux sonata.

[Parsifal]

Moved on to the quartet Op 76, No 2, again listening to Festetics and Aeolian in tandem. I am attracted to this quartet because it is in minor key. I find myself disappointed that minor key works are scarce in the classical period (although even major key works minor keys tend to be prominent in the middle movements). As in the previous work, I find both the Festetics and Aeolian equally satisfying, bring out the "spirited" vs "graceful" characteristics of the work.

A bit daunting that Haydn wrote so many. With enough quartets to fill 22 CDs, will I ever know Haydn's quartets the way I know each of Mozart's 10 mature quartets?

[Karl Henning]

A bit daunting that Haydn wrote so many. With enough quartets to fill 22 CDs, will I ever know Haydn's quartets the way I know each of Mozart's 10 mature quartets?

That is an ambition!  Not an impossibility, but a worthy ambition.

[Gurn Blanston]

Moved on to the quartet Op 76, No 2, again listening to Festetics and Aeolian in tandem. I am attracted to this quartet because it is in minor key. I find myself disappointed that minor key works are scarce in the classical period (although even major key works minor keys tend to be prominent in the middle movements). As in the previous work, I find both the Festetics and Aeolian equally satisfying, bring out the "spirited" vs "graceful" characteristics of the work.

A bit daunting that Haydn wrote so many. With enough quartets to fill 22 CDs, will I ever know Haydn's quartets the way I know each of Mozart's 10 mature quartets?

Minor keys weren't considered particularly emotionally special in the 18th century like they were to the Romantics. You can note that almost every single piece that opens in the minor nonetheless ends in the Major. It was a cultural imperative that works end on a happy note; at least, it was in Vienna. That's why you see Karl's Symphony #34 he was talking about above, the first 2 movements are in d minor but the Finale is in D Major.

Not just the quartets; 22 disks worth of them, another 33 of symphonies, 20 of operas, 9 of keyboard trios, 6 of string trios, a dozen or so of divertimentos, another dozen of keyboard sonatas, 21 baryton trios, songs, masses, oratorios...    8+ years and I am still just scratching the surface!   

[Jo498]

A bit daunting that Haydn wrote so many. With enough quartets to fill 22 CDs, will I ever know Haydn's quartets the way I know each of Mozart's 10 mature quartets?

Maybe not. I think I know most of Haydn's much better than Mozart's 11 early quartets

[Gurn Blanston]

Maybe not. I think I know most of Haydn's much better than Mozart's 11 early quartets

  Yep. I only know the d minor to any degree, even though I have two sets of them. Thanks for the reminder though.

[Parsifal]

Minor keys weren't considered particularly emotionally special in the 18th century like they were to the Romantics. You can note that almost every single piece that opens in the minor nonetheless ends in the Major. It was a cultural imperative that works end on a happy note; at least, it was in Vienna. That's why you see Karl's Symphony #34 he was talking about above, the first 2 movements are in d minor but the Finale is in D Major.

It is not that I regard minor-key works as "sad," but more complex, since there is the ambiguity of the 6th and 7th scale degrees to play with.

Not just the quartets; 22 disks worth of them, another 33 of symphonies, 20 of operas, 9 of keyboard trios, 6 of string trios, a dozen or so of divertimentos, another dozen of keyboard sonatas, 21 baryton trios, songs, masses, oratorios...    8+ years and I am still just scratching the surface!   

Now, don't depress me. These days I normally only have time to listen to a work one movement per day.

[Gurn Blanston]

It is not that I regard minor-key works as "sad," but more complex, since there is the ambiguity of the 6th and 7th scale degrees to play with.

Now, don't depress me. These days I normally only have time to listen to a work one movement per day.

No, it's true, you may not regard them as sad or depressing, I know I don't. But the 19th century certainly did, and that goes a long way to shaping many people's perspective. All you have to do is read an older analysis of Mozart's g minor quintet to know what I mean!    Somewhere I read a quote from Mozart about just that thing, the extra complexity suited his creative.

I really think this is why a lot of people tend to pass by really prolific composers. My choice was to make a long-term commitment instead. The option is to compartmentalize, pick a specialty and go with it, which seems to be what you are doing. Sounds good to me!

[Karl Henning]

Focus!  That's the ticket.

[Jo498]

Together with the symphonies, for me the string quartets as a whole are the most important body of work.

This is not to deny that there are a few pieces in the other genres, like among the late masses, the piano trios and sonatas etc. that are more important than certain quartets or symphonies. But I consider basically all quartets from and including op.9 major works of both Haydn and the string quartet genre and I would not say this about quite a few of the earlyish piano sonatas. As it is difficult and probably moot to talk about the relative quality, a case can be made that the quartets seem to have been more systematically written at certain points in Haydn's career and development than anything else (again, this is also true of a few pieces in other genres, e.g. the Paris symphonies).

[Gurn Blanston]

Together with the symphonies, for me the string quartets as a whole are the most important body of work.

This is not to deny that there are a few pieces in the other genres, like among the late masses, the piano trios and sonatas etc. that are more important than certain quartets or symphonies. But I consider basically all quartets from and including op.9 major works of both Haydn and the string quartet genre and I would not say this about quite a few of the earlyish piano sonatas. As it is difficult and probably moot to talk about the relative quality, a case can be made that the quartets seem to have been more systematically written at certain points in Haydn's career and development than anything else (again, this is also true of a few pieces in other genres, e.g. the Paris symphonies).

The general consensus since Donald Tovey's time is that everything from Opus 20 forward was merely a different form of masterpiece. This is not to deny that Haydn learned new tricks in later years (you can safely interpret that as 'developed new ideas'), but as relative works to their time, they are each equally over and above whatever else is out there. There is no doubt in MY mind that they are his greatest contribution to music, but then, I prefer chamber music above all else. If I was an orchestral fan, then the symphonies would have higher stature. 

[Florestan]

21 baryton trios

You mean 126, right? 

[North Star]

You mean 126, right? 

Gurn was talking about the number of CD's, not works... 126 CD's of baryton trios would really be something.

[Florestan]

Gurn was talking about the number of CD's, not works... 126 CD's of baryton trios would really be something.

Yes, my bad, I didn't read the whole thing.