Haydn's Haus

[Bunny]

The Fey recording I heard was terrible. All the bad Harnonvourt habits (crazy sforzandi, snappy brass and wild wild stuff) and none of the good ones, such as lyricism.

I don't consider those "habits" bad.  I think I have Fey conducting a disc with Mozart Concerti, which I vaguely remember as superb.

Most people like those "bad Harnonvourt [sic] habits (crazy sforzandi, snappy brass and wild wild stuff)."

[SonicMan46]

Well, this seems to have been the complete set that most here enjoyed:


$120 for 33 cds

Bill - this was my vote because I just received the 'Complete Set' - I paid $85 on the Amazon Marketplace (but just checked and cannot find the same deal, unfortunately) - at that price for 33 discs, a no-brainer for me (already owned a bunch of Fischer's recordings of these works and enjoyed them); but, how many complete sets of these works must one own?  I still have a bunch of others, esp. the London Symphonies and will start to 'cull them out' in the next few weeks; now of course that still raises the issue of a desire for a more HIP set - too DAMN much to decide w/ Haydn - I guess my suggestion for those getting started is to listen to some Fischer & Goodman (own a bunch of those discs); if a complete set is desired, then look for a great Fischer BARGAIN!   

[Bulldog]

Bill - this was my vote because I just received the 'Complete Set' - I paid $85 on the Amazon Marketplace (but just checked and cannot find the same deal, unfortunately) - at that price for 33 discs, a no-brainer for me (already owned a bunch of Fischer's recordings of these works and enjoyed them); but, how many complete sets of these works must one own? 

For this "must" question, a reasonable response would be "none".

[Que]

Merged the threads.

For those interested the results of MnDave's poll on which complete set, with only 10 votes casted...

Dorati: 2 votes, Fischer: 4 votes, and another 4 votes for that mysterious and imaginative "other set".

Q

[Herman]

Most people like those "bad Harnonvourt [sic] habits (crazy sforzandi, snappy brass and wild wild stuff)."

Often I like Harnoncourt, too. I love his Haydn recordings. I'm just not so hot about his disciples copying some of his mannerisms.

[alkan]

I'm waiting for my Fischer set to arrive ...... I found it for 52 euros, which is only marginally more expensive than Dorati (45 euros).    I'll post when I get it.      I'm already well-covered for the London and Paris sets ..... for me Kuijken is terrific here, with Harnoncourt in second place.   Also have Bernstein, Marriner, Szell, Mackerras.        Pinnock and Solomons are great for the Sturm & Drang.      I'm counting on Fischer for the early and middle period.

I'll post again when I've heard some of the Fischer set.

[alkan]

I received my big box of Haydn symphonies by Fischer and the A-H orchestra, so I 'm posting a few comments.

I bought the Dorati set when it first came out on LP, but it's now up in the attic and I haven't listened to it for many years  (broken turntable).    I always kept fond memories of it but since those days HIP has arrived and I now generally prefer a leaner, more transparent sound.     For the London and Paris symphonies I have Kuijken and Harnoncourt and I find these really excellent  (especially Kuijken).     But I never filled the gap for the middle and early symphonies, so I was hesitating between the Fischer and Dorati box set re-issues.     I eventually went for Fischer when I found it for 52 Euros on Amazon.

In general I am very happy with my purchase.      I like the sound of the orchestra .... the strings are great, the bass line incisive and clear, I love the wind section and although the brass is a little less brilliant than I hoped it is nevertheless quite audible.     Overall, an excellent, clean and vibrant sound, perfect for Haydn.   The other thing I really appreciate is the absence of a continuo, even for the earlier symphonies.

The recordings are excellent too ..... bright and detailed except for the London's which are not so good (both the sound and the interpretations), but I have Kuijken and Harnoncourt for them.     The "London" sound is not a disaster .... just that you feel like you are sitting at the back of the hall rather in prime position as you do for the other recordings.     

Now, the most important point .... the interpretations.     Putting aside the London's (which lack a certain elan and spirit compared to Kuijken and Harnoncourt, and indeed Fischer himself in the other symphonies), I am pretty happy.   I bought this set for the middle and early symphonies, and for this I'm generally not disappointed.     Fischer usually selects a pleasing tempo that is lively but not too fast to blur the detail.     I'm also enjoying the minuets more the way that Fischer plays them  (compared to Dorati) ..... bouncing, sprightly and full of life  (and such variety !)

So, I've re-established contact with several of my old favourites  .... 60, 77, 78, 80, ....etc.    It's been many years since I heard these works and they really are magnificent.     Not so well known, but what music !!   And Fischer and his players bring them to life quite thrillingly.   

However, despite the praise above, the set is not perfect (IMHO) and I have a few niggles.

First, there are occasional passages which are played by solo strings only (usually solo violin or cello).    Haydn did not write the music this way and they are an invention of Fischer's.    I don't like them.    Fortunately there don't seem to be too many, but they do seem to me to be gimmicky and artificial.     Symphony 48 (Maria Theresa) is a good example.

Second, sometimes Fischer seems to get a rush of blood and goes much faster than the music can bear.    Above a certain point, speed tends to destroy expression ..... things are going so fast that there is no time to point up accents or shape the music.   This tends to ruin (or at least distort) what Haydn wrote and does not seem to me to be in the idiom of the music.   It sounds breathless, rather than spirited and natural.   For example, the amazing first mvmt of No. 39 is far too fast .... under Solomons and Pinnock it is much more violent and angry because it is played slower with time for the accents and rhythms (and silences!) to really bite.     The end of the slow movement of No 78 is another annoying example.     At the end of the andante, the music unexpectedly switches to a "poco allegro" with a brand new tune.    Fischer plays it joyfully and almost "presto" which makes a huge contrast with preceeding andante.   Dorati plays it at the proper tempo, and gently, and it fits in perfectly as a bittersweet little conclusion to a magnificent andante.   I remember Robbins-Landon's notes saying that it was "Kerhaus" music, which means "go home".    A little piece played at the end of a concert to say "it's time to go" and send people home smiling.     

However, I should say that the above transgressions are the exception rather than the rule.   The new discoveries and pleasures that I get from Fischer's performances far outweigh the disappointments, and in general Fischer is more lively and alert than Dorati.   Nevertheless, I have a feeling that I will not be able to stop myself buying the Dorati re-issue when it finally appears.    It contains quite a few old friends ......

Someone on the thread asked for a recommendation between Fischer and Dorati for a complete box-set of Haydn symphonies.    I would reply that I have good and bad news for you.       Both sets are good, but neither are perfect !!       In fact their strengths and weaknesses tend to overlap ... Dorati's London symphonies are better than Fischer's, and Fischer is stronger in the earlier and middle symphonies.     Neither of them are my top recommendation for the later symphonies where Kuijken is outstanding with Harnoncourt close behind.      I'm a HIP fan, so Davis and Jochum are at a disadvantage ....     

I would close by saying that for around 100 euros you can have BOTH Fischer and Dorati and then you are in heaven!    This is the price that the Fischer and Dorati sets used to sell for individually a few years ago, so it's an amazing bargain.

[Gabriel]

Alkan, thanks for your very lucid review of the Fischer set. The acoustic problem of the London symphonies is totally true; if I'm not mistaken those were recorded by Nimbus, a label where that kind of ambiguous sound was found in other recordings. But in general it is a splendid cycle.

I would close by saying that for around 100 euros you can have BOTH Fischer and Dorati and then you are in heaven!    This is the price that the Fischer and Dorati sets used to sell for individually a few years ago, so it's an amazing bargain.

I agree with this statement. There are perspectives in the Dorati set that are unforgettable (just one example: the minuet of symphony n. 70, one of my favorites: Fischer doesn't hit the nail of the question-answer sequence so well established by Dorati). Exploring these symphonies is one of the greatest musical adventures any music lover can experience in his/her life; having two excellent points of view cannot but enhance that adventure.

[Que]

The weirdest and most unexpected thing happened today, and it was one of the best things in record collecting in quite a while for me.

I have the whole Haydn string quartet cycle by the Festetics Quartet, except for the volume with op. 33 &42 - never ever found a trace of it, no matter what I did. As if it had never existed. Before recording for Arcana the Festetics did just those opus numbers foe an issue on Harmonia Mundi. And it was that I was looking for on Amazon when if found..

TA-THA: (drumroll...)



Scheduled for release on the 7th of Mai. I placed a pre-order. Listed on Amazon.fr as op.33 1-6, also on Fnac, but the picture tells that it is indeed op. 33 & 42. Does this mean that ARCANA is now resurrected by new owners? Or maybe the heirs of Michel Bernstein have decided to continue? Either would be splendid news.

Another incomplete to be struck from my list! Somehow in the end these hopeless cases seem always to resolves themselves..

Q

[bhodges]

Que, as an aside, I did a double-take, seeing Istvan Kertész on the cover.  Is that the conductor? 

--Bruce

[Que]

Que, as an aside, I did a double-take, seeing Istvan Kertész on the cover.  Is that the conductor? 

--Bruce

Nope, same name different person. This Istvan is still very much alive.

A short bio:
Istvan Kertesz, first violin, was born in 1945 outside of Budapest. He studied violin with Denes Kovacs and subsequently with Ingrid Seifert and Sigiswald Kuijken. Between 1969 and 1984, Mr. Kertesz was the concertmaster of the Hungarian National Philharmonic. As a soloist and concertmaster of several chamber orchestras, he has performed in most European countries.

Mr. Kertesz's specialization on the period violin dates to 1981. In 1985, together with his colleagues, he founded the Festetics Quartet. He has made many recordings for several labels: Accord, EMI-Electrola, Hungaraton, Novalis, and Quintana-Harmonia Mundi. Mr. Kertesz is professor of violin at the Franz Liszt Music Academy in Budapest.

[rubio]

Q

This is the best news concerning CD's for many months for me!

[Antoine Marchand]

The weirdest and most unexpected thing happened today, and it was one of the best things in record collecting in quite a while for me.

I have the whole Haydn string quartet cycle by the Festetics Quartet, except for the volume with op. 33 &42 - never ever found a trace of it, no matter what I did. As if it had never existed. Before recording for Arcana the Festetics did just those opus numbers foe an issue on Harmonia Mundi. And it was that I was looking for on Amazon when if found..

TA-THA: (drumroll...)



Scheduled for release on the 7th of Mai. I placed a pre-order. Listed on Amazon.fr as op.33 1-6, also on Fnac, but the picture tells that it is indeed op. 33 & 42. Does this mean that ARCANA is now resurrected by new owners? Or maybe the heirs of Michel Bernstein have decided to continue? Either would be splendid news.

Another incomplete to be struck from my list! Somehow in the end these hopeless cases seem always to resolves themselves..

Q

Congratulations, Que. I know, sometimes these things can become a true obsession. And it's so pleasant the find! 

Some information: The rights and brand of the Arcana label were purchased by the Italian company "551 Media" (its owner is Mauro Primon) in a judicial auction. The first project of the purchaser has been to complete the cycle of Haydn's strings quartets (9 volumes and 19 CDs), with the publication of the CDs devoted to the op. 33 & 42. BTW, this is also very strange to me because several times in the past I saw the complete package offered on the web. Anyway, it seems the project includes the entire re-edition of the cycle and other old recordings: http://www.arcana.eu/ 

[Que]

Congratulations, Que. I know, sometimes these things can become a true obsession. And it's so pleasant the find! 

Some information: The rights and brand of the Arcana label were purchased by the Italian company "551 Media" (his owner is Mauro Primon) in a judicial auction. The first project of the purchaser has been to complete the cycle of Haydn's strings quartets (9 volumes and 19 CDs), with the publication of the CDs devoted to the op. 33 & 42. BTW, this is also very strange to me because several times in the past I saw the complete package offered on the web. Anyway, it seems the project includes the entire re-edition of the cycle and other old recordings: http://www.arcana.eu/ 

Thanks for all the info!
NO wonder that I could never find it.

So now the whole series is reissued.
Gurn, you probably will have to rob a bank because you need this! 

Q

[Gurn Blanston]

Thanks for all the info!
NO wonder that I could never find it.

So now the whole series is reissued.
Gurn, you probably will have to rob a bank because you need this! 

Q

Odd timing, eh Q? Since we have been discussing exactly this scenario.

Yes, I would imagine that the entire reissue box will cost an arm and BOTH legs    Well, that's OK, it's only $$$  0:)

Thanks for the info, Antoine.

[Antoine Marchand]

Haydn is sometimes a hard task. It was so difficult and expensive to complete the ten volumes of the symphonies by Hogwood and Co. and now this.

I was calm with my Mosaïques (all of them), Kuijkens (4 CDs), Amadeus (10 CDs) and some other... But the Festetics really looks irresistible. Depending of the prices probably a loan from the bank will be the only solution  .

[Gurn Blanston]

Haydn is sometimes a hard task. It was so difficult and expensive to complete the ten volumes of the symphonies by Hogwood and Co. and now this.

I was calm with my Mosaïques (all of them), Kuijkens (4 CDs), Amadeus (10 CDs) and some other... But the Festetics really looks irresistible. Depending of the prices probably a loan from the bank will be the only solution  .

And I have still to acquire the string trios set (6 disks). They have been more than full price ($22 ea inc. postage), so <>$130 for 6 disks!   I have the Festetics Op 33 & 42 on Harmonia Mundi, as well as the Op 77 & 103, but none of the others that are on ARCANA. Not sure if they are the same recordings or different ones.   The Hogwood symphonies have been right out of sight too, no one is giving them for a reasonable price.




----------------
Listening to:
Boccherini: Quartets - Consortium Classicum - Quartet for clarinet, flute, horn & bassoon in F major, G. 262/2 (arranged by Othon Van den Broek): No. 1, Allegro

[Que]

Odd timing, eh Q? Since we have been discussing exactly this scenario.

Gurn, it's clear we have psychic capabilities.

I have the Festetics Op 33 & 42 on Harmonia Mundi, as well as the Op 77 & 103, but none of the others that are on ARCANA. Not sure if they are the same recordings or different ones.  

Different ones, I believe. Op. 77 & 103 were recorded in 1996 and 1997 in Budapest.

Anyway, the ressurection of Arcana is indeed good news!
And it seems we get the old issues as they were: same artwork  and same pricetag .... (Though I ordered my op. 33 & 42 from Caiman for just over €17 incl. p&p)

BTW which recordings of the string trios are there? Any HIP about?

Q

[Antoine Marchand]

Yesterday I was listening to The London Haydn Quartet on Hyperion (2 Cds). An excellent recording of the Op. 9, although Mr. Hurwitz -on Classicstoday- has a very different opinion:

3/8
"It was exciting seeing this new recording of Haydn's Op. 9, the works that the composer felt inaugurated his mature string quartet production, and that have been largely neglected on disc in favor of the Op. 20 set (which represent the first flowing of the fully mature classical style). The London Haydn Quartet specializes in this repertoire and so had a golden opportunity to establish its authority in music that has not been over-recorded to the point of silliness. Beginning the set with Quartet No. 4 in D minor, widely regarded as Haydn's first masterpiece in the medium, offered them the chance to open by putting their best foot forward, while the use of period instruments should have energized music often smoothed over to the point of dullness.

"Unfortunately, the result here is little short of disastrous. This has to be some of the ugliest quartet playing masquerading under the rubric of "authenticity" that you will ever hear. Those elaborate solo parts for Haydn's celebrated concertmaster, Luigi Tomasini, such as we find in the Cantabile largo of No. 5, or the Adagio of No. 1, sound unforgivably thin and emotionally neutered in the hands of principal violin Catherine Manson. I suppose we have to resign ourselves to the current, historically false fad that calls for the near total avoidance of vibrato, but there's no excuse for a basic timbre that sounds like a cross between a perpetual "sul ponticello" and, above the staff, harmonics. Not that the other players are any better; their parts are simply more tolerable because they are lower in pitch.

"Hideous timbre is in any case the least of this group's problems. Just listen to the opening movement of the D minor quartet. Yes, the tempo is marked moderato, but that does not mean "trudge". Nor does it mean "play everything legato, with no rhythmic definition whatsoever". Phrases trail off into nothingness, and Haydn's expressive lines degenerate into an inarticulate mess. The opening movement of Quartet No. 12, at nearly 13 minutes, becomes all but interminable, particularly as the very close engineering captures not just every inexpressive, ugly sound, but plenty of sniffling and ambient noise as well. And all this supposedly from Haydn quartet specialists!

"Happily you can get a fine set of Op. 9 on Brilliant Classics for about 10 dollars featuring the Buchberger Quartet, and if you want period instruments, the Festetics Quartet on Hungaroton makes these folks sound even more clueless than they do when taken in isolation. Please, Hyperion, don't even dream of making this a series".

Here an example:

http://www.divshare.com/flash/playlist?myId=7218363-0da

[FideLeo]

Yesterday I was listening to The London Haydn Quartet on Hyperion (2 Cds). An excellent recording of the Op. 9, although Mr. Hurwitz -on Classicstoday- has a very different opinion:

Good to learn about more period recordings of these quartets.  Usually low points from Hurwitz only make me feel more curious about the recording.  Quatuor Mosaiques hasn't recorded any new Haydn for some time - I hope that they continue!