Haydn's Haus

[Joe Barron]

Bernstein's recordings of the Paris and London Symphonies with the NYPO, along with a few Masses and the Creation, is being released by Sony as a bargain set. I first heard the Paris symphonies in this recording, and I have never found anything better. I still treasure my three-LP box set, or will until the new CDs arrive.  I also have some of Lenny's London Symphonies (Nos. 93-94 and 102), and it will be a pleasure to own all twelve. He understands this music well, I think, and his brisk, straightforward, rhythmically focused readings are beautifully suited to Haydn's style of composition.

Twelve disks for twenty-five dollars is a steal, and it's only a matter of time before Sony realizes it and either takes it off the market (as they did with the Stravinsky set), or qudruples the price. (The same set at Amazon.uk is about a hundred dollars.)

[Gurn Blanston]

Bernstein's recordings of the Paris and London Symphonies with the NYPO, along with a few Masses and the Creation, is being released by Sony as a bargain set. I first heard the Paris symphonies in this recording, and I have never found anything better. I still treasure my three-LP box set, or will until the new CDs arrive.  I also have some of Lenny's London Symphonies (Nos. 93-94 and 102), and it will be a pleasure to own all twelve. He understands this music well, I think, and his brisk, straightforward, rhythmically focused readings are beautifully suited to Haydn's style of composition.

Twelve disks for twenty-five dollars is a steal, and it's only a matter of time before Sony realizes it and either takes it off the market (as they did with the Stravinsky set), or qudruples the price. (The same set at Amazon.uk is about a hundred dollars.)

Thanks for pointing that out, Joe. I only have 1 Haydn/Bernstein, but it is my single favorite Haydn symphonies disk. That would be the Wiener Philharmoniker playing #88 & 92 on DG. If I may say so, given my tastes especially in Haydn, it was a great surprise to me to be able to say that. But these are 2 excellent performances, not only by one of the world's great orchestras, but also by a conductor not known for putting the best face on pre-Romantic music. That said, I owe Bernstein the huge debt of being the man who turned me on to classical music (I saw the Young People's Concerts at their original TV airings!), so I can forgive him a lot. In this case, I don't have to, he's brilliant!



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Listening to:
Quatuor Mosaiques - K 499 String Quartet #20 in D 1st mvmt - Allegretto

[SonicMan46]

Thanks, Joe & Gurn for the comments on Bernstein - looks like a great bargain! 

Just wonderning what size 'band' in uses from the NY Philharmonic in these performances - I'm starting to really enjoy even the later Haynd in much smaller orchestras (e.g. about 3 dozen instruments) - any comments on why Bernstein may be a good choice here, particularly if he uses a larger orchestra?  Thanks - Dave

[Gurn Blanston]

Thanks, Joe & Gurn for the comments on Bernstein - looks like a great bargain! 

Just wondering what size 'band' in uses from the NY Philharmonic in these performances - I'm starting to really enjoy even the later Haydn in much smaller orchestras (e.g. about 3 dozen instruments) - any comments on why Bernstein may be a good choice here, particularly if he uses a larger orchestra?  Thanks - Dave

Well, Dave, DG are typically silent on such matters, and they are here, too. I'm going to simply say that of all the "big band" Haydn I've heard (and that's a lot!), the ensemble work here is as good as any and better than most. He may or may not have reduced the forces somewhat, I don't have the discernment to tell. But it doesn't sound like it. In any case, the tempi are the closest I've heard to ideal, especially in #88. BTW, this is long OOP, but I saw a copy for a reasonable price on eBay the other day...



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Listening to:
Quatuor Mosaiques - K 589 String Quartet #22 Bb 1st mvmt - Allegro

[Bunny]

That makes it sound as though I'm an old fuddy duddy for not liking Fey's Haydn. No.

The Fey I've heard is brutal and  agressive and brash. If there is a sense of humour, it's puerile slapstick.

I don't find Fey's Haydn brutal.  It is less refined than some other performances, but I would term it more "virile." It's Haydn with balls.  I like music with balls.  Too often Haydn is made so refined and delicate that it's only fit for Marie Antoinette's boudoir. And if you think the humor is more bathroom than ballroom, that's alright too.  18th century humor was a lot earthier than Victorian humor and the 18th century was a period whose brutality equaled it's refinement. 

I like it. period.  You don't have to, but please don't stigmatize it as brutal and brash.  That is just overstating the matter to a ridiculous degree.

It's a little (what shall I say?) counter-realistic to call Haydn's symphonies "warhorses". I have been going to concerts for thirty years now, and if I have heard three Haydn symphonies it's much.

I don't know where you have been, but Haydn's symphonies are being performed fairly frequently here in NY.  In 5 years I've heard Haydn performed 4 or 5 times a season.  I haven't heard that much Beethoven in the same time.  Audiences love Haydn, and it's very easy to program because the symphonies aren't long.  Another thing that I've found is that Haydn is being coupled with works composed in Vienna over the centuries: a Haydn Symphony with a work by Schoenberg, for instance.   In fact, since the Mozart anniversary, I've heard more Haydn than ever. 

[Bunny]

Well, Dave, DG are typically silent on such matters, and they are here, too. I'm going to simply say that of all the "big band" Haydn I've heard (and that's a lot!), the ensemble work here is as good as any and better than most. He may or may not have reduced the forces somewhat, I don't have the discernment to tell. But it doesn't sound like it. In any case, the tempi are the closest I've heard to ideal, especially in #88. BTW, this is long OOP, but I saw a copy for a reasonable price on eBay the other day...



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Listening to:
Quatuor Mosaiques - K 589 String Quartet #22 Bb 1st mvmt - Allegro

Gurn, no need to troll ebay for the 88th!  Now that it's Bernstein's 90th birthday year, there are so many box sets out of his work it's not funny.  It also includes a lovely DG box which includes the 88th, which is selling for about $10.00 from the Amazon partners as well as a new edition of the single disc with 88, 92 & 94.

[FideLeo]

Anybody have the Hogwood/AAM boxes? I managed to get Vols 1 &2 on the cheap and found them quite good, very much in the HIP mould using minimal forces.
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Listening to: Brahms, Johannes - 4. Adagio - Piu Andante - Allegro Non Troppo, Ma Con Brio

I have a few (the later ones in this case, Vol. 7-10) from the series.  They are fine in general but I do find them a bit lacking impact sometimes - the absence of drums and trumpets where (in early versions of these symphonies) unavailable might be a sign. 

[Coopmv]

How is the SQ on this set?  Was the set recorded with the VPO?

[Joe Barron]

Thanks, Joe & Gurn for the comments on Bernstein - looks like a great bargain! 

Just wonderning what size 'band' in uses from the NY Philharmonic in these performances - I'm starting to really enjoy even the later Haynd in much smaller orchestras (e.g. about 3 dozen instruments) - any comments on why Bernstein may be a good choice here, particularly if he uses a larger orchestra?  Thanks - Dave

The liner notes on my LPs of the Paris symphonies say nothing about a reduction in forces. But this is the New York Philharmonic. It's not going to sound like a chamber orchestra. Still, the feeling is Haydnesque. The tempos are steady, the winds are bright, and there's no vibrato. Bernstein doesn't conduct Haydn like Mahler. I think I'll give the DGG set a pass and wait for the Sony disks, if Amazon ever get them in stock. And if they don't, well, I've still got the LPs, plus the Hanover Band's recording of the Paris Symphonies (HIP at its best) and Eugen Jochum's recording of the London Symphonies and Gardiner's box of Masses. I'm not hurting.

[Lethevich]

the Hanover Band's recording of the Paris Symphonies (HIP at its best)

You're one of the few I've encountered online who really like this set - I do, too, despite its eccentricities.

Very interested in the Bernstein now, thanks for pointing it out.

[Bunny]

How is the SQ on this set?  Was the set recorded with the VPO?

Sorry, but I don't have the set.  I was merely trying to point out that the recording that Gurn recommended, which he believed to be OOP is available in this set, and has also been re-released in new edition single.

[Joe Barron]

You're one of the few I've encountered online who really like this set - I do, too, despite its eccentricities.
Very interested in the Bernstein now, thanks for pointing it out.

This morning I listened to the No. 82 (one of my favorites) back to back in the Goodman and Bernstein versions. I didn't catch any eccentricities in the Goodman version. The horns are more prominent, the timpani have that flat snap that natural heads seem to have, and there is a harpsichord, which the Philharmonic does without. But it had the same openhearted drive the Bernstein has. I must say, though, the Philharmonic bass players have a funkier drone than their counterparts in the Hanover band.

[Herman]

If it's about the Haydn symphonies in this DG Bernstein box, you might as well get the single cd. The rest of the box is oratoria.

[jwinter]

Any idea if the Sony/Columbia Bernsteins were remastered for the new set?  I have some of them in older issues, and might consider upgrading if the sound is improved (not that the old sound is particularly bad..)

[Lethevich]

I just noticed something interesting on the French language Wikipedia - the symphonies have been categorised in a more detailed way than I commonly see:

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_des_symphonies_de_Joseph_Haydn

Surely it's not this cut and dry, but is there any merit in describing the "in between" symphonies in these ways?

[Lethevich]

I ran into some downloads of Fey's Haydn, so decided to give it another chance. What I am hearing both confirms my previous impressions (that it was relatively charmless and excessively hard-edged), but there are some more worthy qualities than my first impressions allowed me to notice.

I find him to be strong in the "London" symphonies. His 104 was fine, taut, and the steely quality of the orchestra enhanced the advanced structure, giving it clarity and heightening the architecture. Unfortunately I still cannot enjoy him very much in some of the earlier works. I find the first movement of 82 to be almost absurd in its timpani use. I am used to it rather up-front (as in Goodman's recordings), but it almost felt like micro Bruckner at times in the Fey recording. Another problem I have is that the minuets tend to lack much lilting charm, which is one of the few ways to make them feel more than tiresome interludes. The conductor is certainly not a caricature, as he was not quite as over the top as I had expected in the opening of the first and final movements of 39, but once again, the slightly rigid conducting and steely sound of the instruments rob the 39th of some of the strange chamber-like warmth that you can find in the sturm and drang works (and similarly not find in the later "grand" symphonies). This quality further damages 45 for me and makes me positively dislike the performance - what I find to be a very subtle piece of music becomes breathless.

My feeling is that no single aspect of Fey's music making puts me off, but the combination of several do. This combination includes what I feel is his conducting's inflexibility (not simply a tempo thing, but also a slight lack of play in the dynamics), coupled with some rather choppy phrasing - this is further enhanced by the slightly steely sounding orchestra and the balance of the ensemble allowing for less dynamic variance during loud passages. The orchestra is fine when going absolutely quiet, but seems rather on/off only - then to be hit again by the not exactly subtle string section during a louder passage feels a little jarring. All of these combined makes me struggle to find much warmth or flow, much less subtle humour. Positive qualities are in evidence as well, though. For example, Fey is hardly a conductor unwilling to perform an allegro as just that, and I admire his forward momentum and relatively "no nonsense" approach. This momentum also holds up quite well through whole symphonies despite how I feel about sometimes rather choppy chords... The quality of the ensemble is also very fine as is the recorded sound.

Given the objectively good qualities of the performances I can only conclude that Fey is more divisive than most other Haydn conductors and these CDs are very much more a matter of personal taste than other performances. If they are not to a persons taste then there is a chance that they could absolutely dislike them, simply because I feel that Fey goes quite far in what he does. If they are to a persons taste, then they would probably consider the style vital and essential.

[71 dB]

Finally I started exploring these symphonies (Dorati). I do it while travelling to work and back (iPod). I seem to prefer the early/mid symphonies. The amount of these symphonies is staggering! 

[snyprrr]

Is there a website where I can hear any Haydn SQ for free? Performance not an issue.

[Lethevich]

Is there a website where I can hear any Haydn SQ for free? Performance not an issue.

Do you mean all of them or any one? YouTube (as might be expected) has lots. This is one of my favourite ones from his greatest set, in one of my favourite performances:

http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/PCXg8xo31h0 http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/P7nIv1sTqx0  http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/NJyNqWGC9jw

[Lethevich]

Finally I started exploring these symphonies (Dorati). I do it while travelling to work and back (iPod). I seem to prefer the early/mid symphonies. The amount of these symphonies is staggering! 

I hope you enjoy them! There is a deceptive amount of invention in each one which rewards repeated listening. I for some reason did not like the London set at first, either...