Haydn's Haus

[DarkAngel]

Sonic
Any progress with your listening sessions?
I have been comparing the following:

Buchberger/Brilliant complete set -> Mosaiques/Naive Op 20, 33, 64, 76, 77 -> Festetics/Arcana Vol 6, 7, 8, 9

Buchberger
These are my favorite, these are vibrant energetic performances that keep me fully engaged, feel like spontaneous
live performances which I love and admire, I can almost detect a gypsy flair to the sound.......others may call it rough around the edges, so if you seek a refined elegant performance look elsewere

Mosaiques
These are not my favorite, they have great sound quality but just never have enough energy for me, too relaxed polished overall.
I was often was bored with these, like beautiful shades of grey with no vibrant colors..........something is missing

Festetics
These I like much better than Mosaiques, compared to Buchberger a touch more restrained and perhaps more balanced but still
able to generate necessary dramatic contrasts and hold my interests, very deep rich string tones, a soulful sound. I will definitely be keeping these, compared to Buchberger quite an expensive collection however

In summary if I could keep only one I choose Buchberger........

[The new erato]

Some time ago I did read an interesting article by Jamie James (October 2, 1994, New York Times) , which discuses the use of continuo, especially harpsichord, in Haydn symphonies. This issue was especially controversial when Christopher Hogwood and Roy Goodman assumed antagonic positions in his own cycles.

I recalled it today when I was listening to these superb Haydn symphonies with continuo:

So you actually like the Freiburgers? 

Here's the Hurwitzer at it again, in his review of the new Jacob's Schøpfung:

"Finally, there's the Freiburg Baroque Orchestra, a group whose string playing is so ugly, so devoid of variety and stylishness, that it becomes a real issue of competence."

http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=12441

[Antoine Marchand]

So you actually like the Freiburgers?  

Here's the Hurwitzer at it again, in his review of the new Jacob's Schøpfung:

"Finally, there's the Freiburg Baroque Orchestra, a group whose string playing is so ugly, so devoid of variety and stylishness, that it becomes a real issue of competence."

http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=12441

Well, a minuet says more than thousand words:  

http://www.divshare.com/flash/playlist?myId=9110892-366

I am not generally a supporter of the Freiburg Baroque Orchestra, especially because of its usual very fast tempi; but they are outstanding in these symphonies.

Anyway, this time I will be fair with "the Hurwitzer" because he loves these performances, too (another thing is the coherence of his different reviews):

10/10

Haydn's trilogy of "Morning, Noon, and Night" symphonies, composed as a sort of sequel to Vivaldi's The Four Seasons, lives or dies on the quality of its solo playing, and on that basis alone I have no hesitation in naming this recording the current reference edition in these works. The Freiburg Baroque Orchestra plays fabulously, with outstanding contributions from Karl Kaiser (flute), Petra Millejans (violin), and the two horn players. With respect to these latter instruments in particular, so often period players make a fetish out of producing stopped tones more appropriate to the kazoo--but listen to the rich, lovely sounds that principal horn Teunis van der Zwart makes at the first movement recapitulation of Symphony No. 6. There ought to be a Romantic quality to all fine horn playing, nowhere more so than in classical period works where the instrument's association with the hunt is never far from the surface.
But there's much more to enjoy than noble-toned horns. Here's one conductorless band that plans its performances on a scale larger than most standard orchestras manage. Even with relatively small forces they play with a big dynamic range -witness the opening "sunrise" of No. 6, or the La Tempesta finale of No. 8-, and no mean sense of drama--check out the operatic slow movement of No. 7, with its very vocally expressive opening instrumental recitative. Tempos are generally swift but always are chosen to give the players the room they need to phrase and characterize the music to maximum effect, and Harmonia Mundi affords the ensemble ideally balanced, warmly detailed sound. Sadly, recordings of this music come and go, but let's hope this one sticks around long enough for music lovers to discover just how wonderful it is. [4/27/2002]
--David Hurwitz, Classicstoday

P.S.: "Night symphony", Dave?  

[DarkAngel]

Still working my way through Christine Schornsheim's complete sonata set......

Has anyone purchased her 2CD set of 8 concertos again using different keyboards throughout?
I can tell by the short samples I much prefer the forte piano versions compared to harpsicord or small organ

Also any comment on the 1CD Andreas Staier concerto performance.....

[Que]

Got this reissue of the Staier/ Von der Goltz, a favourite (forte)pianist and a favourite conductor.



Impressions after a few spins. Wonderful performances: very lucid, elegant and sophisticated but nonetheless quite pointed and well articulated, with meticulously detailed and well thought-through phrasing by Staier who plays a copy after Walter, which sounds very good indeed. Very typical for Staier's general style IMO - this is a "thinker's" performance. Recording is spacious but not too resonant with a good focus on the fortepiano, matching the performances in transparency. I haven't heard the Brautigam other than in samples but I'd expect his performances with Mortensen to have more "umph" and to be more driven. Anybody cares to comment?

Anyway: this is warmly recommended!

Q

[DarkAngel]

Ok great info Q........

almost a pointless exercise to ask if any Andreas Staier CD is less than excellent, if only he recorded in greater quantity   
I do already have the Brautigam/Bis concerto CD.......

[Antoine Marchand]

This set is on the road from MDT... I hope it will arrive in ten days or so.

[SonicMan46]

Sonic
Any progress with your listening sessions?
I have been comparing the following:

Buchberger/Brilliant complete set -> Mosaiques/Naive Op 20, 33, 64, 76, 77 -> Festetics/Arcana Vol 6, 7, 8, 9..................

In summary if I could keep only one I choose Buchberger........

Hello DA - YES, I'm still going through the Buchberger Box at a slower pace - recently listened to Op. 54, 55, & 64 - my only 'comparison listening' was w/ the Lindsay set of Op. 55 - I enjoyed the Buchberger performances much more, just greater energy and enthusiasm in the playing; the Op. 64 recordings were just excellent (I do own the Kodaly in the same works, but did not even do a comparison - just knew that I'd like the Buch's better!).

Now, I have Quatuor Festetics coming 'in the mail' of some of these latter SQs, so may wait until their arrival, just so I can do some more comparison; so far, my 'bottom line' is that the Buchberger Box Set remains an excellent recommendation for a complete offering of these superb works - I just cannot understand some of the MAJOR objections to this set; of course, quibbles are always going to be there - Dave

[snyprrr]

Hello DA -  my only 'comparison listening' was w/ the Lindsay set of Op. 55 - I enjoyed the Buchberger performances much more, just greater energy and enthusiasm in the playing; - Dave

And I had the exact opposite reaction with the same compare. Go figure! Can I call you names now?

[Opus106]

Hey, Gurn, I think I sort of get Haydn's Spaß. The last movement of No. 46, the symphony, was one bizarre ride , not to mention the repeat of pseudo-ending which actually marked the true end.

[Opus106]

Hey, Gurn, I think I sort of get Haydn's Spaß. The last movement of No. 46, the symphony, was one bizarre ride , not to mention the repeat of pseudo-ending which actually marked the true end.

Oh, and he does it again! Just when I thought I wanted to play that last movement of the 90th again, he informed me that he wasn't done with it yet.

[Gurn Blanston]

Oh, and he does it again! Just when I thought I wanted to play that last movement of the 90th again, he informed me that he wasn't done with it yet.

Yes, the false ending is one of many little tricks that Joe likes to play on us. Once you've reached the point in musical listening ability that you develop expectations, that is just where you come to appreciate his ability to defeat them. A very intelligent fellow, I'd have liked to know him. Somehow I can see him standing in the wings laughing at his own jokes and the cognoscenti falling for them.

[Opus106]

Yes, the false ending is one of many little tricks that Joe likes to play on us. Once you've reached the point in musical listening ability that you develop expectations, that is just where you come to appreciate his ability to defeat them. A very intelligent fellow, I'd have liked to know him. Somehow I can see him standing in the wings laughing at his own jokes and the cognoscenti falling for them.

I'm just glad that I didn't read about the symphony in advance or notice the track timing for the movement -- that would've totally spoilt it. I hope that someday I'll understand what is so funny about the thing in D-flat major.

[snyprrr]

ok, it's been 10 days!...



It's gotten to the point where I can't ignore Opp. 9/17 any longer, if only because they're all that's being discussed these days, ha!

I've been doing some behind the scenes corresponding, and diligently reading the thread, and I finally found Jens' WETA reviews, and, predictably, we have some interesting choices ahead. First off, the players are, generally:

Aeolian

Tatrai

Kodaly

Angeles

Festetics

Buchberger

London HQ

Am I missing one? (I don't believe the Salomon recorded 9/17 (maybe Hyperion will stop with LHQ? (probably not, ha!)))



I am now one of those who thinks that I want to start my journey with 9/17 (never heard 'em, just snippets on YouTube) with a HIP set. They're just "old" enough for me that, well,... you don't want to hear my vanity! Anyhow, that pretty much narrows the field to Festetics, LHQ, or Buchberger.

Now, I know what I said about the BBs in Opp. 54/55 (listened again yesterday (without compare), and, ok, I still hear a lot of slurring of the super fast runs, and some other problems, but,...anyhow), but, I am certainlt willing to believe that they might hit 9/17 just fine (not everyone does the whole cycle well). Also, I am totally unfamiliar with these sets, so I may not be put off by any pre-judgments. And, of course, they are cheaper than even the Kodaly (whom I have heard are a little bland in these sets (or, just fine, as I've also heard)).

The Festetics have been noted to be quite leisurely and homey, and the LHQ have been noted (criticized?) to be quite daring in matters such as tempo (to the point many have balked). Both of these are priced about the same.

I get the feeling I would go for the BB simply for prices' sake. The LHQ is so controversial right now, I feel quite drawn, but I don't know if this is just hype. Let me reiterate that this computer doesn't do "fun stuff" like audio very well, so I'd have to wait to hear snippets for myself. I did just hear a bit of the Op.9/5, d minor, SQ, and had a V8 moment, so I know I'll like the music at least.



Personally, I don't know if this topic is already dead on the thread, but, if not, please let us continue. It's just that I think we have an equal number of votes between the contenders. Do the BBs really shine in 9/17? Are the LHQ too "too"? Are the Festetics too genial, or just right? Which bowl of pottage is it?

Ha,.. OR are ya gonna tell me I need all of em? Hahahaha.....

[Herman]

Wouldn't it be more useful to post about recordings you know, rather than post these speculations about 'contenders' you are 'considering'? There's really virtually no info in a post like the above.

[SonicMan46]

Now, I know what I said about the BBs in Opp. 54/55 (listened again yesterday (without compare), and, ok, I still hear a lot of slurring of the super fast runs, and some other problems, but,...anyhow), but, I am certainlt willing to believe that they might hit 9/17 just fine (not everyone does the whole cycle well). Also, I am totally unfamiliar with these sets, so I may not be put off by any pre-judgments. And, of course, they are cheaper than even the Kodaly (whom I have heard are a little bland in these sets (or, just fine, as I've also heard)).

The Festetics have been noted to be quite leisurely and homey, and the LHQ have been noted (criticized?) to be quite daring in matters such as tempo (to the point many have balked). Both of these are priced about the same.

I get the feeling I would go for the BB simply for prices' sake. The LHQ is so controversial right now, I feel quite drawn, but I don't know if this is just hype. Let me reiterate that this computer doesn't do "fun stuff" like audio very well, so I'd have to wait to hear snippets for myself. I did just hear a bit of the Op.9/5, d minor, SQ, and had a V8 moment, so I know I'll like the music at least.

snyprrr - LOL!    Sounds like you're again driving yourself NUTS w/ these 'micro analyzes' - sometimes seeing the 'forest through the trees' might be a better option, or take 'shrimp & grits' (one of my wife's favorite dishes) - there are many recipes and variations, some are better than others, but not always that different, and occasionally, one may prefer a little more heat, a hotter andouille sausage, etc.  -   

I just finished  listening to my 'newer & older' sets of these works about a week ago - quite difficult for me to pick ONE favorite group, among those sets that I own the most recordings, i.e. Buchberger, Q. Festetics, & Q. Mosaiques - I would suggest that the first two in that list would be a good start.  BTW, I was just reading a review in the Nov/Dec issue of Fanfare  by James North (quoted below 'in part' from ArkivMusic) - seems to be a Buchberger fan! 

HAYDN Quartets: op. 33/1–6; op. 42 • Festetics Qrt (period instruments) • ARCANA 414 (2 CDs: 144:55)

A few years ago, the Festetics was one of my two favorite period-instrument ensembles for early-to-middle Haydn quartets (the Mosaïques was the other). It plays accurately, crisply, and in tune, with close respect for markings in the score, and it plays every repeat, including Menuets da capo. Its pitch (A = 421 Hz) would have seemed terribly low two decades ago but now feels just right. All these characteristics are reinforced by this new set, recorded in 2006 in Budapest. So what happened? Along came the Buchberger, on Brilliant Classics. It plays repeats when and if it chooses—seldom the second ones in sonata-form movements, and never in Menuets da capo. It is rather casual about score markings; staccatos are often elided. It plays period instruments at modern pitch. But it gives fresh, vital performances; its first violin and its cello are gorgeous, individual lines are always clear, and ensemble blend is ravishing.

In many of these quartets, the Buchberger makes the Festetics seem dry and lifeless. Case in point: the Presto finale of the B-Minor Quartet (op. 33/1) is played correctly and cleanly by the Festetics, and yet a sense of caution is in the air; at exactly the same tempo, the Buchberger's Presto blazes with brilliant excitement. The dry, clear Arcana recording allows every detail to be heard; the slightly more reverberant Brilliant Classics one may be less observant, but its warmth and sheen are more listener friendly. In the opening Allegro moderato of the C-Major Quartet (op. 33/3), the Festetics' reading begins to suggest a cutesy "Papa Haydn"—despite their period-practice credentials—whereas the Buchberger is strong and direct. Five measures before the close of the Andante of the D-Major (op. 33/6), the Festetics first violin plays a fancier, longer (and lovely) cadenza than that by the Buchberger, but the latter's cello holds a gorgeous pedal note throughout, while the Festetics plays unaccompanied. My Dover score shows a whole note—the cadenza comes in the middle of a measure—but it's reasonable to play the cadenza as a solo

[Gurn Blanston]

Well, this could be in "Purchases Today", or in "Haydn Keyboard", but it isn't in either of them. It's here instead, and along with it a question for any of you about what you know/don't know, like/don't like about the clavichord.



Derek Adlam playing 3 sonatas, 2 variation sets and a capriccio on the clavichord. Included are one of my favorite sonatas (the b minor) and one of my favorite variations (the f minor "un piccolo divertimento').

Looking forward to its arrival.

[snyprrr]

All my research is fiscally based!

If, in the late '80s, Hyperion had used the Salomon to record Opp. 9 & 17, at $19.99 a pop for Hyperion in those days, we're looking at @$45 investment for the whole she-bang.

If the "bible" performance is only a few dollars more, ok, then maybe, but if said performance is OOP and $275 for a single disc on Amazon, well, not so much.

Right now I could get Buchberger 9 AND 17 for the price of LHQ 9 OR 17. By this logic, LHQ would have to be at leeeast 2-3 better than the BBs, haha!, in order for the LHQ to be competitive. Of course, if by some happenstance the LHQ was on Amazon for $4.99, and the BBs for $11.99, well, then, what are you going to do when astrophysics and monkey wreches start dictating your record collection?



It's just that I'd rather talk myself out of buying, rather than talk myself into buying. Anyone here who has ever had a shopping "problem" should understand. None of them HERE, though, huh?



Of course, I hope we're all having a good time here. Everything that's happened on this particular thread has certainly enriched me all around this year. I can chart my own Haydn growth by this thread, and I enjoy asking about real one-offs (Dekany Op.20?), and then of course the whole HIP thing...



which brings me to that review Sonic posted. As I read, I saw that a lot of the things the reviewer liked, I might have had a problem with. He noted that the BBs do pretty much what they want to, whensoever they want to do it, and so forth, tuning up, and so on, as opposed to the Festetics, which the reviewer seems to characterize as a more, uh, traditionally HIP outfit (oh, that sounds funny!). The word reckless comes to mind, which, when you can have some performances, say, by the Kodaly, coming up very blaaaaand, then it could be refreshing to have a more devil may care interpretation. My impression is that the LHQ are the ones taking tons of risks/choices (based on all the ink here), along with the BBs (in a totally different way).

Everyone, so far, I believe, have characterized the Festetics as the "safest" choice: always reliable to deliver the goods the way that they do. But, because the BBs and the LHQ have just come along too, both with different ways of doing things from the QF, the playing field in this particular arena (9/17) seems to have particularly interesting HIP choices.

back to the review-

I think that's what I noticed about the BBs, was that they were kind of a hybrid outfit, sometimes sounding HIP, sometimes sounding modern. I didn't really like it in 54/55. but maybe in the early stuff it will take on a whole new light.

I can certainly appreciate that the BBs have "spunk." At least you know they'll do something different than the rest, and generally be a little more recommendable than the Kodaly, perhaps, overall.

(ha, "OKlahoma!" just started, haha)



anyway, I'll be getting the BBs here soon in 9 & 17. Can't wait to see how that will go (plan your vacations! )! oh, haha, you poor guys, hahaha...



btw- what about the menuet of 33/3? anyone? pretty rad, huh?

[Antoine Marchand]

My impression is that the LHQ are the ones taking tons of risks/choices (based on all the ink here)...

The Sleep of Reason Produces Monsters: Plate 43 of The Caprices (Los Caprichos), 1799
Francisco de Goya y Lucientes (Spanish, 1746–1828)

[Que]

The Festetics have been noted to be quite leisurely and homey, and the LHQ have been noted (criticized?) to be quite daring in matters such as tempo (to the point many have balked). Both of these are priced about the same.

Everyone, so far, I believe, have characterized the Festetics as the "safest" choice: always reliable to deliver the goods the way that they do. But, because the BBs and the LHQ have just come along too, both with different ways of doing things from the QF, the playing field in this particular arena (9/17) seems to have particularly interesting HIP choices.

snyprrr, I'm really baffled by your summarry by "everyone's" comments on the Quatuor Festetics!
If I recall the comments of those here who know their Haydn cycle best: Gurn, Antoine and myself, "homey" and "safe" is not even close to reality. I assume you must have misread or confused some of the comments. For instance I did say that their tempi are at times "leisurely" but that doesn't mean their playing/ interpretation is.

Might I suggest listening to the QF?

Q